Racer7x Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 In post race inspection are tech sheets being displayed on the cars as talked about in the past? If not, do we have to petition for this to happen or can this just be made a mandatory requirement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Racer7x said: In post race inspection are tech sheets being displayed on the cars as talked about in the past? If not, do we have to petition for this to happen or can this just be made a mandatory requirement? Varies... I was in impound at two events this year and put my logbook on the windshield (wasn’t asked) but not tech sheet. Other cars had logbooks being held by tech guy and you could ask if something was or wasn’t claimed. At another race teams had tech sheets displayed. I know there is a change in the rule in the 2019 rulebook but I can’t remember it. A consistent practice will be in place soon I am sure. Some of the inconsistency may be from teams doing more than what is asked, so it looks like there is variation from race to race when from an official standpoint there isn’t. Edited October 9, 2018 by enginerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wink Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 Log books were on the windshield at Harris Hill. Everyone was free to take a look at ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 Log books are always or should always be at the track. Tech sheets are not. Let's say I tech in California in February and my next race is at Road America. Where is my tech sheet? Bueller? But my log book is always there. We went to log books for this reason. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuaTTro Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 One thing that could be improved is some standardization of what is written in the Log Books. Sometimes I see the breakdown of parts and points, and other times just the total points with no description of what parts were claimed. Additionally, for swapped cars, there is no indication of the budget spent, so we can't identify cars which are OK on points, but over the limit on swaps dollars ($1500). As Ray pointed out in the other thread, Ecotec Miata teams have told him the custom wiring harnesses and performance headers were included in the swap kits, but we seen that's not true per the websites that sell the swap kits. There is no way to protest on this aspect of the rules if we cannot see the dollars spent per part for the swap (should be easy to document this since it's on the swap sheet and validated by the required receipts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, QuaTTro said: One thing that could be improved is some standardization of what is written in the Log Books. Sometimes I see the breakdown of parts and points, and other times just the total points with no description of what parts were claimed. Additionally, for swapped cars, there is no indication of the budget spent, so we can't identify cars which are OK on points, but over the limit on swaps dollars ($1500). As Ray pointed out in the other thread, Ecotec Miata teams have told him the custom wiring harnesses and performance headers were included in the swap kits, but we seen that's not true per the websites that sell the swap kits. There is no way to protest on this aspect of the rules if we cannot see the dollars spent per part for the swap (should be easy to document this since it's on the swap sheet and validated by the required receipts). The initial swap sheets are presented when a swap is done. If it is accepted, that's the end of it. It's not carried from race to race, and not presented again. Sorry. If it's ok when presented, then the log book will note the value and should have all the value (not swap) components listed in it. I don't have mine with me at work, but I can scan and show you a photo. I've never seen a logbook with only a value. I'm sure that tech will ensure details provided moving forward, and everyone needs to re-tech for the new year anyway so that can be cleaned up. My kit had no harness, BTW. We made ours from the last harness. What other thread are you talking about? Edited October 9, 2018 by Jer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 3 hours ago, QuaTTro said: One thing that could be improved is some standardization of what is written in the Log Books. Sometimes I see the breakdown of parts and points, and other times just the total points with no description of what parts were claimed. Additionally, for swapped cars, there is no indication of the budget spent, so we can't identify cars which are OK on points, but over the limit on swaps dollars ($1500). As Ray pointed out in the other thread, Ecotec Miata teams have told him the custom wiring harnesses and performance headers were included in the swap kits, but we seen that's not true per the websites that sell the swap kits. There is no way to protest on this aspect of the rules if we cannot see the dollars spent per part for the swap (should be easy to document this since it's on the swap sheet and validated by the required receipts). Our wiring harness was part of the cost of the motor. We bought a wrecked car took what we needed (motor, harness, ecu) and sold the rest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Jer said: Log books are always or should always be at the track. Tech sheets are not. Let's say I tech in California in February and my next race is at Road America. Where is my tech sheet? Bueller? But my log book is always there. We went to log books for this reason. It's not very technologically challenging to digitize tech sheets and have them stored electronically on a shared drive. They could easily be saved by car number/team and accessed by Timing/Scoring as the race ends, printed and sent to post race impound. I'm not arguing that log books won't be helpful, but I also think there is a benefit to see what teams claim at Tech. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted October 9, 2018 Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 Log books should serve the same purpose. Everything is supposed to be in them. If it's not, tech didn't do their job. I've never seen that in a logbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Bill Strong Posted October 9, 2018 Administrators Report Share Posted October 9, 2018 Jay, Rob, and I are currently working on a new system for tech and inspection. This will also help with impound. Stay tuned. yes. It uses electricity. 3 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemy Autosport Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 10/9/2018 at 11:47 AM, Jer said: Log books should serve the same purpose. Everything is supposed to be in them. If it's not, tech didn't do their job. I've never seen that in a logbook. Its just so hard to read the log books. I wrote everything that's in mine and I can still hardly read it. If the books were bigger that would be possibly ok. I still vote for tech sheets to @Snorman s point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer7x Posted October 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 10/9/2018 at 10:28 AM, Wink said: Log books were on the windshield at Harris Hill. Everyone was free to take a look at ours. Pre or post race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 10/9/2018 at 2:20 PM, Bill Strong said: Jay, Rob, and I are currently working on a new system for tech and inspection. This will also help with impound. Stay tuned. yes. It uses electricity. I hope it works atleast as good as the electricity version of membership cards. . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wink Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 13 hours ago, Racer7x said: Pre or post race? Post in impound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted October 11, 2018 Report Share Posted October 11, 2018 Tech sheets should be 100% open and available online for any team to look at. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atxe30 Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 19 hours ago, MoparBoyy said: Tech sheets should be 100% open and available online for any team to look at. What would be even better is a tabular listing of all cars by class with VPI, Actual Point Value of car. (Unless this already exists, but I can't seem to find one) Then expand / modify results postings so it is possible to visualize just how far over the 500 point line you can step and still be competitive within a given class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilsonSteele Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 Man, I am tired of the log book debate. We CAN NOT self police with only the information in the log book. AT BEST, It is half the info needed, quickly written and cramped into a tiny space, that needs deciphering from a tech inspector who is hopefully the same person who made the decisions about what went into the log book For example, One crucial thing missing from ALL log books I have ever inspected, is the list of things tech allowed, and decided was zero points, so it never got written... -Oh, that set of headers was allowed with that engine swap on that car cause they couldn't clear the engine bay if they didn't get it, it's for free -Oh, that power steering swap to electric was driver comfort (on a turbo motor) -Oh, that movement of a mustang engine cradle was considered time only and done with garage welder -Oh, all that subframe bracing was just fixing a rusted chassis (but seam welded the entire bottom of a car with angle iron) OR -Oh, that mustang custom rear suspension was home fabricated, so it is costed as materials, but we added up all materials together to a single number so you can't tell what was claimed -Oh, those steering rack spacers were home fabricated, so it is costed as materials, but we added up all materials together to a single number so you can't tell what was claimed -Oh, those shock top hats were home fabricated, so it is costed as materials, but we added up all materials together to a single number so you can't tell what was claimed If the intent of the series is to self police, why can't we listen to the people complaining that self policing isn't easy enough? Edit- Bill, I support your efforts to make self policing easier and more transparent. Thank you for you work in that direction. Let me know if I can help. 5 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 Yes please. Scan all tech and swap sheets. Keep them somewhere searchable by other teams. Boom, cheating should be almost immediately eradicated as well as any secret handshake values that may or may not have existed 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: cheating should be almost immediately eradicated Wishful thinking again. Not that I would wish it to be so but until some motors get looked at from the inside cheating is still going to happen. Maybe a few other things as well. I do agree tech sheets and swap sheets will help if public but maybe some deeper digging would go further. I also have watched a few dyno pulls after an event but found it strange some cars pulled to full rpm and others did not, makes you wonder. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted October 14, 2018 Report Share Posted October 14, 2018 18 hours ago, 55mini said: Wishful thinking again. Not that I would wish it to be so but until some motors get looked at from the inside cheating is still going to happen. Maybe a few other things as well. I do agree tech sheets and swap sheets will help if public but maybe some deeper digging would go further. I also have watched a few dyno pulls after an event but found it strange some cars pulled to full rpm and others did not, makes you wonder. There have been at least a few questionable issues with the post race dynos but I, for one, am glad they are being done relatively frequently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 6 hours ago, Snorman said: There have been at least a few questionable issues with the post race dynos but I, for one, am glad they are being done relatively frequently. Scales are cheaper ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, mender said: Scales are cheaper ... The problem is that there are no rules governing the weight of the vehicle so it is mostly non useable information. The only info you could gather is how diligent the individual team was on removing weight. If the point of the scales is to determine what the race weight of certain vehicles is versus the expected calculator weight, you would need several samples of each model of car to develop a realistic database. You would also need cars from the field, not just podium cars (who I am going to guess would be the lightest). If you didn't take cars from the field, you are penalizing the teams that put in the extra work to make their cars lighter. I guess to summarize the above, what is the problem we are trying to solve that scales would be helpful? Dynos will tell you if something is cheaty with the engine. Scales tell you that a team took time and effort to remove weight. Nothing against removing weight in the rulebook. Edited October 15, 2018 by wvumtnbkr 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: Dynos will tell you if something is cheaty with the engine Not to disagree but they need to be run on a consistent manor or they will tell you nothing of value. When a top finishing team runs on the dyno and said car has a redline at lets say 7K but the auto run on the dyno stops at 6K what does that tell you??? And it reached a number above said published number then what happens? For reference I have seen that same make and model on a dyno and it builds HP all the way to the end, like another 10-12 HP after 6K. Then you get into some other issues of what does Champcar do if it shows numbers outside of stock are they going to pull down a motor? I would not look for that to happen. And then one can argue about the dyno being not very accurate and all that stuff or being run with the same amount of wheel load. I'm not sure there are any easy answer to this issue and I for one am just going to go racing and let the powers to be sort this stuff out, or not. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, 55mini said: Not to disagree but they need to be run on a consistent manor or they will tell you nothing of value. When a top finishing team runs on the dyno and said car has a redline at lets say 7K but the auto run on the dyno stops at 6K what does that tell you??? And it reached a number above said published number then what happens? For reference I have seen that same make and model on a dyno and it builds HP all the way to the end, like another 10-12 HP after 6K. Then you get into some other issues of what does Champcar do if it shows numbers outside of stock are they going to pull down a motor? I would not look for that to happen. And then one can argue about the dyno being not very accurate and all that stuff or being run with the same amount of wheel load. I'm not sure there are any easy answer to this issue and I for one am just going to go racing and let the powers to be sort this stuff out, or not. Agreed, you can mess up values on a dyno. My point wasn't that dynos are good, it was that they at least can give you some results as to whether a team is following the rules. Scales do not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55mini Posted October 15, 2018 Report Share Posted October 15, 2018 Agree with you on both points and don't see any easy answers as of yet. So at that same event they ran two BMW's and one ran to 6K and the other to 7K which was kind of interesting in itself, but then the results were even more interesting to me, not sure anyone else saw the difference but the car which ran to 6K pulled like 3-4 more HP then the one running out to 7K. To me that tells me something was wrong in one of those motors. But once again someone from Champcar would have to step up and say whats up with that result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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