82Zkartracer Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 I'm looking at trying to transition our Lemons Team over to Champcar during the 2019 season. I ran the VIR 24 this past year and absolutely loved the program champ runs. I was wondering if there are any teams that run a gen 1 or 2 taurus SHO that could give me a breakdown of how they use their points and also how competitive they find themselves. Personally just going through the rules the 400 base points seem a little high. I know the car has a great motor but between being a heavy FWD car and the fragile transmission it seems a little high. I could see 375 probably. But that's solely on my crunched numbers and no real data. Mainly though i just want to hear thoughts and stories about SHOs in champcar. Thanks! - Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) Welcome Last weekend there was one @ AMP, no clue how they did but it was out there doing decently, a friendly lot, I would start with tracking them down. Edited November 1, 2018 by Team Infiniti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted November 1, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, 82Zkartracer said: I'm looking at trying to transition our Lemons Team over to Champcar during the 2019 season. I ran the VIR 24 this past year and absolutely loved the program champ runs. I was wondering if there are any teams that run a gen 1 or 2 taurus SHO that could give me a breakdown of how they use their points and also how competitive they find themselves. Personally just going through the rules the 400 base points seem a little high. I know the car has a great motor but between being a heavy FWD car and the fragile transmission it seems a little high. I could see 375 probably. But that's solely on my crunched numbers and no real data. Mainly though i just want to hear thoughts and stories about SHOs in champcar. Thanks! - Max Welcome to the forum. The 1st gen SHO had a few teams running them in 2010-2012ish. I have seen less of them in recent years. I would tend to agree with you that the 400 point value is high maybe even 375 point. The motor is good, and the fuel capacity is good and like you said the transmission is very weak and the car doesn't handle GREAT. At larger tracks they can certainly still be competitive. @sergio ran one for quite a while IIRC. You can petition the BOD to have the value reviewed in 2019. With limited resources the cars that are less common and not extremely over / under valued can be overlooked year to year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben 594 Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 20 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Welcome Last weekend there was one @ AMP, no clue how they did but it was out there doing decently, a friendly lot, I would start with tracking them down. I see the car parked here a good part of the year... except for during the AMP weekend. http://www.towerautorepair.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82Zkartracer Posted November 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 34 minutes ago, red0 said: I would tend to agree with you that the 400 point value is high maybe even 375 point. The motor is good, and the fuel capacity is good and like you said the transmission is very weak and the car doesn't handle GREAT. At larger tracks they can certainly still be competitive. You can petition the BOD to have the value reviewed in 2019. With limited resources the cars that are less common and not extremely over / under valued can be overlooked year to year. Honestly if i was to run Champ specifically i would mount a smaller fuel cell in the car to save weight. The car runs 3 hours on 15 gallons and has an 18 gallon stock tank. I know we wouldn't make 4 hours on a tank but if we only need to go 2 then shrinking it up would be beneficial. I agree it might be worth a petition especially if i can back up performance discrepancies with results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 1 minute ago, 82Zkartracer said: Honestly if i was to run Champ specifically i would mount a smaller fuel cell in the car to save weight. The car runs 3 hours on 15 gallons and has an 18 gallon stock tank. I know we wouldn't make 4 hours on a tank but if we only need to go 2 then shrinking it up would be beneficial. I agree it might be worth a petition especially if i can back up performance discrepancies with results. You will not save weight going from a large stock tank to a cell of any size but no rule says you have to fill it more then needed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross2004 Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 You burn 5 gallons an hour with 220hp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82Zkartracer Posted November 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, ross2004 said: You burn 5 gallons an hour with 220hp? 5 gallons and 1 quart of oil. It is only a 3 L. and i doubt it still makes that much power at 250k miles. But yeah. We do 2.45 stints in lemons at 14 gallons a pitstop consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) At the speeds we go in champ you will eat 8 to 10 gph at 200-220 hp as a rough guideline. There is alot less downtime and harder running here. The lemons team i help was leading rd atlanta race and quoting silly good fuel burn. I got in and ran 2 sec faster than them at a 1:52... The same time i ran consistently during the champ race in the dark in a top 20ish level car (ok top 30...). Be prepared for everything to consume faster at champ speeds. (Almost 10 sec a lap faster at some places). Didn't the eggboy car run well? Been a long time. Edited November 1, 2018 by Black Magic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 16 hours ago, 82Zkartracer said: Honestly if i was to run Champ specifically i would mount a smaller fuel cell in the car to save weight. The car runs 3 hours on 15 gallons and has an 18 gallon stock tank. I know we wouldn't make 4 hours on a tank but if we only need to go 2 then shrinking it up would be beneficial. I agree it might be worth a petition especially if i can back up performance discrepancies with results. 16 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: You will not save weight going from a large stock tank to a cell of any size but no rule says you have to fill it more then needed 15 hours ago, Black Magic said: At the speeds we go in champ you will eat 8 to 10 gph at 200-220 hp as a rough guideline. There is alot less downtime and harder running here. The lemons team i help was leading rd atlanta race and quoting silly good fuel burn. I got in and ran 2 sec faster than them at a 1:52... The same time i ran consistently during the champ race in the dark in a top 20ish level car (ok top 30...). Be prepared for everything to consume faster at champ speeds. (Almost 10 sec a lap faster at some places). Didn't the eggboy car run well? Been a long time. Never ever give up fuel capacity, it is one of the most precious commodities in endurance racing. You never know when you may be able to take advantage and run a long stint with only a driver change and make up laps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 17 hours ago, 82Zkartracer said: 5 gallons and 1 quart of oil. It is only a 3 L. and i doubt it still makes that much power at 250k miles. But yeah. We do 2.45 stints in lemons at 14 gallons a pitstop consistently. We've run both Lemons and Champ at Gingerman this year with our Volvo 960, which has a 19 gallon tank. At the Lemon race we were able to go 2:45-3:00 per tank. At the Champ race, we could only go 2:00-2:15. Our fast lap was actually faster at the Lemons race, but the sheer number of cars on track and the much slower pace they are going greatly reduced our lap time as we had to pass 5+ cars every lap. There were also yellow flags and safety trucks out for about half the time we were on track. If you are going to get rid of fuel capacity, at least give it to your mustang brethren! I think I've heard they want more. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted November 2, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 16 hours ago, Black Magic said: Didn't the eggboy car run well? Been a long time. Yea, eggboy was successful in the early days such as 2011. I grabbed a seat from those guys in 2014 at BIR, so I have a little insight into the SHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jab31169 Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 20 hours ago, 82Zkartracer said: I'm looking at trying to transition our Lemons Team over to Champcar during the 2019 season. I ran the VIR 24 this past year and absolutely loved the program champ runs. I was wondering if there are any teams that run a gen 1 or 2 taurus SHO that could give me a breakdown of how they use their points and also how competitive they find themselves. Personally just going through the rules the 400 base points seem a little high. I know the car has a great motor but between being a heavy FWD car and the fragile transmission it seems a little high. I could see 375 probably. But that's solely on my crunched numbers and no real data. Mainly though i just want to hear thoughts and stories about SHOs in champcar. Thanks! - Max 3 posts and the first one he's already complaining about points.... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 20 minutes ago, Jab31169 said: 3 posts and the first one he's already complaining about points.... And that glass transmission; 25 points pays for a transaxle swap ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Scribe said: We've run both Lemons and Champ at Gingerman this year with our Volvo 960, which has a 19 gallon tank. At the Lemon race we were able to go 2:45-3:00 per tank. At the Champ race, we could only go 2:00-2:15. Our fast lap was actually faster at the Lemons race, but the sheer number of cars on track and the much slower pace they are going greatly reduced our lap time as we had to pass 5+ cars every lap. There were also yellow flags and safety trucks out for about half the time we were on track. If you are going to get rid of fuel capacity, at least give it to your mustang brethren! I think I've heard they want more. How do you go Over 2hrs in champcar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted November 2, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 53 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said: How do you go Over 2hrs in champcar? 1) very slowly 2) under the radar 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82Zkartracer Posted November 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 4 hours ago, Jab31169 said: 3 posts and the first one he's already complaining about points.... Come on. I t wouldn't be proper racing if somebody wasn't complaining about the rules. But to be honest when a mustang of similar year is half the points of a wrong wheel drive sedan i think an argument can be made. 4 hours ago, mender said: And that glass transmission; 25 points pays for a transaxle swap ... There aren't many transmissions the SHO motor is compatible with. Could use the auto but it racing so that's no fun. The ranger 5 speed would work but then the car would have a FR layout. Which would be fun but a lot of work and uncertain reliability. Other than those 2 everything else requires an adapter plate which is more money than worth for that car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jab31169 Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, 82Zkartracer said: Come on. I t wouldn't be proper racing if somebody wasn't complaining about the rules. But to be honest when a mustang of similar year is half the points of a wrong wheel drive sedan i think an argument can be made. Yea its kind of a thing around here, hence why my gif said welcome...you'll fit right in 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 3 hours ago, 82Zkartracer said: Come on. I t wouldn't be proper racing if somebody wasn't complaining about the rules. But to be honest when a mustang of similar year is half the points of a wrong wheel drive sedan i think an argument can be made. There aren't many transmissions the SHO motor is compatible with. Could use the auto but it racing so that's no fun. The ranger 5 speed would work but then the car would have a FR layout. Which would be fun but a lot of work and uncertain reliability. Other than those 2 everything else requires an adapter plate which is more money than worth for that car. Someone needs to SHOw up with a re-powered ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 3, 2018 Report Share Posted November 3, 2018 22 hours ago, MoparBoyy said: How do you go Over 2hrs in champcar? We changed drivers during the Sunday quiet hour to see if we could get rid of a pit stop by going 2:45 on the first tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted November 5, 2018 Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 Saw one in a lemons race this weekend. Did well (for that series) i think top 5 overall. They did seem to take their time during shifting..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82Zkartracer Posted November 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 On 11/5/2018 at 10:35 AM, Black Magic said: Saw one in a lemons race this weekend. Did well (for that series) i think top 5 overall. They did seem to take their time during shifting..... That sounds about right. Our car is usually top 15 in pace and our longer stints mean that if we don't mess up top 10s are doable in lemons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergio Posted December 9, 2018 Report Share Posted December 9, 2018 The best we did with our 89 Sho in Champcar was at Texas Motor Speedway finished 2nd. Two hours on a tank is doable. Takes 15 gallons to fill up. Third gear is the weak link in the trans. Use it too much and the teeth break. We’ve been racing in WRL since 2014, tough competition there. We are basically the Morgan Shepherd of GP2. We have finished 3rd in class 3 times. By not having the 2 hour limit we can drive for economy by using 4th most of the time and go 2:45. The car is just too heavy to compete against E30’s and miatas. I’m too old to build another car so I’ll stick with this til I’m out of parts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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