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New fender ruling from TAC section

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4 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Well right now I think I know which series needs teams worse.   How long did it take to  fill a recent 100 car field of entries?

Really has nothing to do with this rule/ruling.   

thats a terrible example, if you want to speak of being profitable.

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2 minutes ago, Huggy said:

thats a terrible example, if you want to speak of being profitable.

Did I use the word Profit..Profitable...or breakeven?    Thanks for putting words in my mouth.    I was talking about the number of teams that are connected, and willing to spend money with what series.   If you'd like we could go back and compare other races at between the two series and see who is getting the bigger turnouts.    Check Barber, I think they had something on the order of 25 there.     

 

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7 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Did I use the word Profit..Profitable...or breakeven?    Thanks for putting words in my mouth.    I was talking about the number of teams that are connected, and willing to spend money with what series.   If you'd like we could go back and compare other races at between the two series and see who is getting the bigger turnouts.    Check Barber, I think they had something on the order of 25 there.     

 

 

I know many lemons teams who get there feet wet for endurance racing, then want to move over to our series.. are you saying we shouldn't care?  Or what about on the west coast where lucky dog is hammering champcar?  don't you think we need more of those Lucky Dog cars in our series?

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2 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

I know many lemons teams who get there feet wet for endurance racing, then want to move over to our series.. are you saying we shouldn't care?  Or what about on the west coast where lucky dog is hammering champcar?  don't you think we need more of those Lucky Dog cars in our series?

We should encourage them to come on over....doesn't mean we should change the rules to get them here.   This series should always be looking at how to offer the best product, I don't think that always means copying someone else.   Most of the time it does not mean copying someone else.   Was chatting with a master fabricator once about his car while people were taking pictures of what he'd built.   I asked, "does it bug you that so many take pictures so they can replicate your work?"  He said "Nope, if they copy my car they can only be as fast as me, to beat me they have to figure out something better"   I thought that was pretty wise.  And of course his next better car was already developing in his head.    I think that applies in business too.  Does it mean we should never adopt something from another series, nope.  I also think the saying "never say never" is pretty wise.  

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10 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

So what if you don’t have fenders at 10 and 2 o’clock?

35474334_2626437944049014_3868455581555621888_n.jpg.cb46244f82626b8cc7173aa7c2aed095.jpg

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There are lots and lots of cars with this configuration.  Not sure where ours falls,  ours might be 2, it might be like 1:50.   Maybe we can claim we did our fenders on daylight saving time. 

 

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45 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Because this is changing the balance of performance of the series in a in-direct (unintended or intended, who knows) way.

 

If your 500 point car (SC300) used to be able to run 275's but poked out 1/16th of an inch, and now you cant, your car just got slower.  

 

Baseball bat or eastwood roller is free. Handful of other ways to solve this as well.

 

Alot is possible, extreme examples you might need to respray your fenders (those fenders were flat).

 

If you get wrecked enough to push the fender onto or past the tire, roll it back out during your next pit stop with a bat or your hands like the big boys (pro teams). I think having the fender flare made of cardboard that flys off is the sort of thing the on track check would really be for (do you still have a fender). If Nascar can manage to have a minimum equipment standard (the list is longer than you think that results in a black flag, i have been on a team that got one), surely we can manage keeping our fenders attached to the car.

 

The sky isn't falling guys....

 

 

20180120_184922-1280x960.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Baseball bat or eastwood roller is free. Handful of other ways to solve this as well.

 

Alot is possible, extreme examples you might need to respray your fenders (those fenders were flat).

 

If you get wrecked enough to push the fender onto or past the tire, roll it back out during your next pit stop with a bat or your hands like the big boys (pro teams). I think having the fender flare made of cardboard that flys off is the sort of thing the on track check would really be for (do you still have a fender). If Nascar can manage to have a minimum equipment standard (the list is longer than you think that results in a black flag, i have been on a team that got one), surely we can manage keeping our fenders attached to the car.

 

The sky isn't falling guys....

 

 

 

 

Please, come roll my 500 point car’s fenders with a baseball bat.  I’d love to see you do that magic trick.

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36 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

We should encourage them to come on over....doesn't mean we should change the rules to get them here.   This series should always be looking at how to offer the best product, I don't think that always means copying someone else.   Most of the time it does not mean copying someone else.   Was chatting with a master fabricator once about his car while people were taking pictures of what he'd built.   I asked, "does it bug you that so many take pictures so they can replicate your work?"  He said "Nope, if they copy my car they can only be as fast as me, to beat me they have to figure out something better"   I thought that was pretty wise.  And of course his next better car was already developing in his head.    I think that applies in business too.  Does it mean we should never adopt something from another series, nope.  I also think the saying "never say never" is pretty wise.  

 

my point wasn't that we should duplicate them.  my point is when you make something completely different like this rule.  you are no longer allowing crossover cars. 

 

again, all the other series, WRL, AER, NASA, SCCA have all figured out an easier, to the point rule on this.

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50 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

Baseball bat or eastwood roller is free

I did not want to be the first one to say baseball bat but you can bet that is going to be the first attempt as soon as the thing is running again, step 2 will be the home made roller the old guy/previous owner left in my barn, but that will only work on front fenders. From there things will get dicey, pulling the rear quarters till the roof goes down and the trunk lines stretch...

 

Going to be interesting trying to work a (home built) roller for the very first time.

Edited by Team Infiniti

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29 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Please, come roll my 500 point car’s fenders with a baseball bat.  I’d love to see you do that magic trick.

 

For the fenders with reasonable amounts of iron left....sure.....

 

Has no one done the baseball bat fender roll? No hot rodders here? Even the "stanced" crowd can baseball bat roll.

 

The real masters have a buddy slowly drive the car forward while the bat operator holds it at the proper angle......saw some old timers do that on a gm a body once.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

For the fenders with reasonable amounts of iron left....sure.....

  

Has no one done the baseball bat fender roll? No hot rodders here? Even the "stanced" crowd can baseball bat roll.

  

The real masters have a buddy slowly drive the car forward while the bat operator holds it at the proper angle......saw some old timers do that on a gm a body once.



 

Every car I have built for this series except the last one had fenders rolled at the track using a jack handle and Louisville slugger. The Louisville slugger was destroyed during the meme wars of 2016 and I ended up buying a fender roller from 90racing.com 

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10 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

I did not want to be the first one to say baseball bat but you can bet that is going to be the first attempt as soon as the thing is running again, step 2 will be the home made roller the old guy/previous owner left in my barn, but that will only work on front fenders. From there things will get dicey, pulling the rear quarters till the roof goes down and the trunk lines stretch...

 

Going to be interesting trying to work a (home built) roller for the very first time.

 

Amazon fender rollers for <$50 are just as good as the old $200+ ones.

I paid $43 for this one a bit back.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077YF835H/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&amp;psc=1

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

For the fenders with reasonable amounts of iron left....sure.....

 

Has no one done the baseball bat fender roll? No hot rodders here? Even the "stanced" crowd can baseball bat roll.

 

The real masters have a buddy slowly drive the car forward while the bat operator holds it at the proper angle......saw some old timers do that on a gm a body once.

 

 

 

Its not as simple as you and rich are pretending it is.

 

the frustrating part is that there have been people giving suggestions, but instead of considering them, the tac just goes on the defensive with “its safety” or “it’s simple, just use a baseball bat” or some other dismissal.

 

Sometimes the forum is toxic crap, but sometimes some useful information can be filtered from the BS, the key is understanding how to determine which is which and knowing how to respond.

 

respectfully

huggy

98AEB0CF-0EB2-4B3C-BE81-B2239C2B101F.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Amazon fender rollers for <$50 are just as good as the old $200+ ones.

I paid $43 for this one a bit back.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077YF835H/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&amp;psc=1

This is the direction the conversation should be going, how to fix the car rather then female dog about a rule.

 

P.S. I just applied some baseballl bat tech to see how bad its going to be, might need a bigger pipe or the above roller to get results in back but the front responded decently. All this talk takes away from hands on solutions.

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ChampCar is member owned. Every member has a voice within this organization if they want it to be heard. Complaining on the forum will not get you far. Emails into people within ChampCar do help. Along with writing a petition. There are ways members can call a meeting with the Board if they get enough members involved. Our processes are public to everyone and had to be approved by the membership. 

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18 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

 

Its not as simple as you and rich are pretending it is.

 

the frustrating part is that there have been people giving suggestions, but instead of considering them, the tac just goes on the defensive with “its safety” or “it’s simple, just use a baseball bat” or some other dismissal.

 

Sometimes the forum is toxic crap, but sometimes some useful information can be filtered from the BS, the key is understanding how to determine which is which and knowing how to respond.

 

respectfully

huggy

98AEB0CF-0EB2-4B3C-BE81-B2239C2B101F.jpeg

 

Remember the BOD makes the rules, TAC just gives advice, often advice to both the board and fellow racers on how to navigate the rules. TAC can't make rules no matter how much we love or hate them, so when we are posting solutions they are often what we are going through or would go through on our personal cars.

 

The car in the picture i posted was one i fixed. It had 2" of wheel protrusion past fender front and rear. I would guess none of you have that much to fix. There are many other methods to fix this that i can offer as advice, many require minimal fab\tool skill. No one has asked more details on what i did, instead i expect most of the forum to explain to me how it isn't possible (out of a reluctance to try). 

 

As a racer i know it will incur more work, particularly for cars who used our open wheel width rules to their fullest. Anyone willing to work to fix their car i am willing to offer advise on how to fix it so we can all race again. Not because i want to "make a rule seem right", but because i love the car hobby and love seeing other people do it. 

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55 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

For the fenders with reasonable amounts of iron left....sure.....

 

Has no one done the baseball bat fender roll? No hot rodders here? Even the "stanced" crowd can baseball bat roll.

 

The real masters have a buddy slowly drive the car forward while the bat operator holds it at the proper angle......saw some old timers do that on a gm a body once.

 

 

 

 

We did this at Road America after some contact.  With a jack handle.  Had driver roll car backwards/forwards a few times.  Got our tire clearance back, only extended the pitstop by a couple of minutes.  Its not hard or terribly time consuming.   Use a heat gun to soften the paint up a bit and you significantly reduce chances of cracking the paint.  

 

Heck, before the contact happened, people probably never realized that I have nearly a 1" pull on my rear fenders....

 

 

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21 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

ChampCar is member owned. Every member has a voice within this organization if they want it to be heard. Complaining on the forum will not get you far. Emails into people within ChampCar do help. Along with writing a petition. There are ways members can call a meeting with the Board if they get enough members involved. Our processes are public to everyone and had to be approved by the membership. 

 

This is going the way it is because the membership was never told this rule was coming or polled in how to solve the "issue" in the first place, it was just dropped in the lap of the members without member input in the first place.

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8 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

This is going the way it is because the membership was never told this rule was coming or polled in how to solve the "issue" in the first place, it was just dropped in the lap of the members without member input in the first place.

 

Feel free to write a rule to change it. Rules can be changed. If someone finds a better way to write it then by all means send it in. 

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3 hours ago, Huggy said:

Because this is changing the balance of performance of the series in a in-direct (unintended or intended, who knows) way.

 

If your 500 point car (SC300) used to be able to run 275's but poked out 1/16th of an inch, and now you cant, your car just got slower.  

 

I don't think I heard anything from you complaining about the balance of performance changing when you wrote that 117 cars had their VPI lowered.  Just saying, I think tires in the fenders is a much more microscopic change than moving VPI's by 100 points.

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1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

 

For the fenders with reasonable amounts of iron left....sure.....

 

Has no one done the baseball bat fender roll? No hot rodders here? Even the "stanced" crowd can baseball bat roll.

 

The real masters have a buddy slowly drive the car forward while the bat operator holds it at the proper angle......saw some old timers do that on a gm a body once.

 

 

Baseball bat and a jack handle, along with a mallet was how we did ours too. 3 years before a rule was ever written saying we had to.

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Serious question.  if this is such a safety concern.. why isn't it implemented ASAP?  there is still many more races in 2018.  are those races unsafe?

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