EC Performance limits

[allemay]

Does anyone know what would be considered too fast to run even in EC?  Can I run a Radical RS3?  Porsche 911 GTS?  WRL had a few radical running with their normal race and I guess it went well.  

[Originalsterm]

I'd rather not. Too much speed differential, especially novice teams in lower speed cars. 

[ironworks]

9 hours ago, Originalsterm said:

I'd rather not. Too much speed differential, especially novice teams in lower speed cars. 

I agree. It also defats the point of the series. 

[thewheelerZ]

There is no real definition of what is too fast from what I've seen. Radical? My guess is that would get turned around and sent home. Though, a GT3 Cup car was running (testing) at Utah from what I recall?  So your GTS should be no issue.... ?

[allemay]

Kind of what I thought the reaction would be.  I'd love to buy a radical given that the performance is amazing and they're relatively cheap to run.  Problem is that there aren't many options in the Midwest to run them.  More likely to buy a M3 and run that in EC.  I think that should be allowed.  Take a look at the Elan NP01.  Super cool and you can find them used for $50k.  Still more money than a Champcar but wow, what a value.  

 

[Xph]

In a Road America race a few years ago, there was some controversy about the tires being run by EC cars, it was generally agreed after that event that the 200 TW rule should be applied to EC cars as well (in this case a spec miata was on slicks); but there are defiantly some gray areas as to what rules pertain to EC cars; generally accepted that its up to the Tech director at that race...

 

Champcar has the ability of course to boot any competitor for being unsafe, but I would think if you were on legal tires, with legal safety gear,  in a car that started life as a production car, and driving responsibly you would be fine, but I dont think a radical would fit that definition.

 

1.3.6. Unsafe Vehicles: At ChampCar’s sole discretion, any car may be determined unsafe for competition and may be removed from the event at any time.

 

1.3.7. Unsafe Drivers: At ChampCar’s sole discretion, any driver may be determined unsafe for competition and may be removed from the event at any time

 

2.3.2. ChampCar reserves the right to deny entry to any EC car if ChampCar determines the car to be excessively superior in power, braking, top speed or other factors that ChampCar feels would be unsafe or disruptive to any event

 

2.3.4. EC vehicles must meet all ChampCar rules and regulations for vehicle eligibility.

 

 

If I had a radical, I would put some 200 tw tires on it, and take it to a practice day, and demonstrate how it can run comparable lap times to the rest of the field, and ask the tech director for that event it it might be possible to compete with the appropriate safety gear (cage, firesystem, etc)...   even if it were allowed, you would need to change the car quite a bit for a chump legal cage though.

 

I just wouldn't expect to get very far with a car that was not a north american production car to start its life.

[ironworks]

2 hours ago, allemay said:

Kind of what I thought the reaction would be.  I'd love to buy a radical given that the performance is amazing and they're relatively cheap to run.  Problem is that there aren't many options in the Midwest to run them.  More likely to buy a M3 and run that in EC.  I think that should be allowed.  Take a look at the Elan NP01.  Super cool and you can find them used for $50k.  Still more money than a Champcar but wow, what a value.  

 

I'm not sure where your at as far as driver level but one thing to keep in mind is its easier to learn in a lower power car. It's no secret that races are won on the states and if the car is a rocket you really don't have to focus as much as corner exit because the car can make up for the "lack of skill". But then again thats just me I liked driving my stock Miata on the track more than my 430 wheel hp FD RX-7. As our teams head tech I also like the fact were building something to last. thats half the fun. 

 

I vote get an sweet monster car for track days and build a Champcar. You can have the best of both worlds. 

[Xph]

1 hour ago, ironworks said:

I vote get an sweet monster car for track days and build a Champcar. You can have the best of both worlds. 

 

I agree, if you want something that will be "fast enough" to keep you out of trouble, and "just works"  I would defiantly look at anything with a "spec" series for road racing..   those cars are just "set up"  soo much knowledge out there on the forums and from other racers...   and with EC you can either buy something like a spec boxster... or do something like a honda K swapped miata, lots of suspension parts, light, relatively easy to buy; might even get one caged and with the spec package...  loads of fun...

[TiredBirds]

If you have enough money for a 911 GTS car you have enough to build a legit Chumpcar.  Or just buy one done. They come up for sale often. 

[TiredBirds]

Here perfect starter, V8 stick, plenty of cheap aftermarket go-fast parts raceyracecar

[allemay]

3 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

If you have enough money for a 911 GTS car you have enough to build a legit Chumpcar.  Or just buy one done. They come up for sale often. 

I'm well aware of that.  I've run a "legit" Chumpcar for 4 years.  I want something newer and nicer which puts me into EC, which is also a "legit" chumpcar.

[TiredBirds]

18 minutes ago, allemay said:

I'm well aware of that.  I've run a "legit" Chumpcar for 4 years.  I want something newer and nicer which puts me into EC, which is also a "legit" chumpcar.

Aren't 2005 Mustangs and Challengers on the list now? Lots of nice cars on the list. 

[allemay]

On 11/18/2018 at 1:26 PM, Xph said:

In a Road America race a few years ago, there was some controversy about the tires being run by EC cars, it was generally agreed after that event that the 200 TW rule should be applied to EC cars as well (in this case a spec miata was on slicks); but there are defiantly some gray areas as to what rules pertain to EC cars; generally accepted that its up to the Tech director at that race...

 

Champcar has the ability of course to boot any competitor for being unsafe, but I would think if you were on legal tires, with legal safety gear,  in a car that started life as a production car, and driving responsibly you would be fine, but I dont think a radical would fit that definition.

 

1.3.6. Unsafe Vehicles: At ChampCar’s sole discretion, any car may be determined unsafe for competition and may be removed from the event at any time.

 

1.3.7. Unsafe Drivers: At ChampCar’s sole discretion, any driver may be determined unsafe for competition and may be removed from the event at any time

 

2.3.2. ChampCar reserves the right to deny entry to any EC car if ChampCar determines the car to be excessively superior in power, braking, top speed or other factors that ChampCar feels would be unsafe or disruptive to any event

 

2.3.4. EC vehicles must meet all ChampCar rules and regulations for vehicle eligibility.

 

 

If I had a radical, I would put some 200 tw tires on it, and take it to a practice day, and demonstrate how it can run comparable lap times to the rest of the field, and ask the tech director for that event it it might be possible to compete with the appropriate safety gear (cage, firesystem, etc)...   even if it were allowed, you would need to change the car quite a bit for a chump legal cage though.

 

I just wouldn't expect to get very far with a car that was not a north american production car to start its life.

 

Excellent points.  I didn't recall the "North American Production Car" section.  The Radical is probably taking the topic too far.  They don't hit any higher of a top speed than our Firebird would but the braking and corner speeds are tons different.  I'm really just wanting to run a newer M3 or something similar.  Something that handles well, has good power and is newer for the sake of reliability.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by allemay

[allemay]

1 minute ago, TiredBirds said:

Aren't 2005 Mustangs and Challengers on the list now? Lots of nice cars on the list. 

Oh, maybe so.  I haven't reviewed the new list.  I'm trying to get away from the full size American car.  Our Firebird ate tires, brakes, fuel, and tires.  The cool thing about a Radical, although it's probably not a good fit for Chumpcar, is that it's really easy on all of those things.  More of an initial investment but cheaper to run with amazing performance.  There's just not a good option to run them at RA or Brainerd.  The Radical was an extreme example for the sake of argument.  More likely end up with a M3, Boxster, 350z, or something more acceptable.  I'm mainly trying to get other people's thoughts on the subject.

 

[TiredBirds]

29 minutes ago, allemay said:

Oh, maybe so.  I haven't reviewed the new list.  I'm trying to get away from the full size American car.  Our Firebird ate tires, brakes, fuel, and tires.  The cool thing about a Radical, although it's probably not a good fit for Chumpcar, is that it's really easy on all of those things.  More of an initial investment but cheaper to run with amazing performance.  There's just not a good option to run them at RA or Brainerd.  The Radical was an extreme example for the sake of argument.  More likely end up with a M3, Boxster, 350z, or something more acceptable.  I'm mainly trying to get other people's thoughts on the subject.

 

Our Gen III bird is ok on tires and since we upped to C6 brakes are not a problem but fuel is limited because of the tank size. A 350z would probably work ok as long as it didn't have a bunch of engine mods... I'm also betting if you show up with something unique you might get some slack. 

[Ronh911]

1 hour ago, allemay said:

Oh, maybe so.  I haven't reviewed the new list.  I'm trying to get away from the full size American car.  Our Firebird ate tires, brakes, fuel, and tires.  The cool thing about a Radical, although it's probably not a good fit for Chumpcar, is that it's really easy on all of those things.  More of an initial investment but cheaper to run with amazing performance.  There's just not a good option to run them at RA or Brainerd.  The Radical was an extreme example for the sake of argument.  More likely end up with a M3, Boxster, 350z, or something more acceptable.  I'm mainly trying to get other people's thoughts on the subject.

 

 

Bring a GT4 to the party, you won’t be disappointed!

[turbogrill]

Wouldn't it be a bit boring running a 911 or C6/C7 with Miatas and non-M BMWs? Like stealing candy from a kid type thing. 

 

I can see how its great for spec boxster, spec e46 and such to get some good track time.

[Wittenauer Racing]

Is spec e46 a thing yet? That or a 350z would be reliable fun and could be made legal later if you wanted.

 

Personally for low running cost fun, Id be looking at a Mini Cooper S (probably the supercharged ones) or some form of Honda/Miata. Our current B-spec mini runs 30+ hours on tires, 50+ on brakes and 5 to 6 gal/hr on fuel so far on open track days. 5 years of running and we've replaced a thermostat housing, a belt, and a couple light bulbs....

[BigMoneyWasters]

I ran with the 2 Radicals at Road Atlanta last year. They were only a few seconds faster than the hot rod BWMs and Porsche's running too. No problem from them being in the race, just closely watched mirrors and flags. Fun to watch them zip by.

[enginerd]

Radicals are so far outside the scope of the series, I wouldn’t want them in the race. The only upside is that my entry fee goes down a tiny bit because of the increased attendance. 

[scottyk]

40 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Radicals are so far outside the scope of the series, I wouldn’t want them in the race. The only upside is that my entry fee goes down a tiny bit because of the increased attendance. 

Agree 100%

[Racer28173]

I wouldn’t want them in the field when the cars were packed up (like at the start).  They corner too well, are hard to see because of the height, and would end up getting hip checked off a lot.  If they get spun, they become launch ramps.  

 

We don’t need launch ramps.  This is an extreme case, but still worth thinking about: