Indysupra Posted November 24, 2018 Report Share Posted November 24, 2018 I was going to add some wings to my oil pan and use the materials add for the points. That work for chump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted November 24, 2018 Report Share Posted November 24, 2018 50 minutes ago, Indysupra said: I was going to add some wings to my oil pan and use the materials add for the points. That work for chump? That is my understanding. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indysupra Posted November 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) Can I use metal from the fuel tank and take zero points? Edited November 26, 2018 by Indysupra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 26, 2018 Report Share Posted November 26, 2018 28 minutes ago, Indysupra said: Can I use/repurpose metal from the fuel tank and take zero points? Only if you plan to use that fuel tank. You can not replace the fuel tank with a cell, then use the tank for material. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted November 26, 2018 Report Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) On 11/23/2018 at 7:24 PM, Indysupra said: I was going to add some wings to my oil pan and use the materials add for the points. That work for chump? You also need to understand you are on the edge... modifying a stock part with a fixed point value will likely cause you to get hit with the fixed point value.. 25 points non OE oil pan... is what I would expect I ran into this with my intake, I wanted to cut off the long intake runners and just build a log to feed them at a shorter length.. tech said, while I could cut apart my intake and make some alterations, if it looked like I made a different intake, i would get hit with the 50 points non OE intake... Even if I just cut out the material to shorten the intake it was on a slippery slope. another way to think about it is pretty much, you can heat and tweak your headers, maybe cut and alter one tube or something, but if you go and make something equal length with a new collector (even if its from stock bits) you will get hit with the 25 point header fee.. The word I got from tech (albeit with a different chief of tech) is that we will know it when we see it... I would say if the part looks like the old part, with some new bit tacked on, you are probably ok, if you are making a new oil pan, you are going to take the same points as if someone bought the moroso unit. Edited November 26, 2018 by Xph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Xph said: You also need to understand you are on the edge... modifying a stock part with a fixed point value will likely cause you to get hit with the fixed point value.. 25 points non OE oil pan... is what I would expect I ran into this with my intake, I wanted to cut off the long intake runners and just build a log to feed them at a shorter length.. tech said, while I could cut apart my intake and make some alterations, if it looked like I made a different intake, i would get hit with the 50 points non OE intake... Even if I just cut out the material to shorten the intake it was on a slippery slope. another way to think about it is pretty much, you can heat and tweak your headers, maybe cut and alter one tube or something, but if you go and make something equal length with a new collector (even if its from stock bits) you will get hit with the 25 point header fee.. The word I got from tech (albeit with a different chief of tech) is that we will know it when we see it... I would say if the part looks like the old part, with some new bit tacked on, you are probably ok, if you are making a new oil pan, you are going to take the same points as if someone bought the moroso unit. I would have agreed with you here, except that the BoD just removed the words from the rulebook (that they just added in October?) saying that items made from repurposed parts / metal will be valued at the fixed point cost of whatever was made. I very much disagree with this... I think that new rule should have stayed... but since they removed it I don't think they have a leg to stand on if you show up with a new intake manifold made from rolled up sheet metal that you cut out of your roof. I hope that someone does this and they don't like it and then they put that text back in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indysupra Posted November 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Xph said: You also need to understand you are on the edge... modifying a stock part with a fixed point value will likely cause you to get hit with the fixed point value.. 25 points non OE oil pan... is what I would expect I ran into this with my intake, I wanted to cut off the long intake runners and just build a log to feed them at a shorter length.. tech said, while I could cut apart my intake and make some alterations, if it looked like I made a different intake, i would get hit with the 50 points non OE intake... Even if I just cut out the material to shorten the intake it was on a slippery slope. another way to think about it is pretty much, you can heat and tweak your headers, maybe cut and alter one tube or something, but if you go and make something equal length with a new collector (even if its from stock bits) you will get hit with the 25 point header fee.. The word I got from tech (albeit with a different chief of tech) is that we will know it when we see it... I would say if the part looks like the old part, with some new bit tacked on, you are probably ok, if you are making a new oil pan, you are going to take the same points as if someone bought the moroso unit. If adding a square foot of metal to gain an extra quart or so equals a “new” oil pan and 25 pts then this series will soon evaporate to what it was when I was running lemons at good tracks and CHUMP was running snow days at vir and rovals only. We are excited about running this series this year and we always keep the car legal for chump (at the cost of speed In wrl) but man it’s tough when stuff like this comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Indysupra said: If adding a square foot of metal to gain an extra quart or so equals a “new” oil pan and 25 pts then this series will soon evaporate to what it was when I was running lemons at good tracks and CHUMP was running snow days at vir and rovals only. We are excited about running this series this year and we always keep the car legal for chump (at the cost of speed In wrl) but man it’s tough when stuff like this comes up. Sorry just a gross overreaction... the series has been headed in this direction for quite some time, moving away from a builder series, and putting builders and buyers on the same playing field... My point here is the only way to know for sure is to ask tech.. show them exactly what you want to do... if it looks like you welded an oil filter or two to the side of your pan, you are probably fine... if it looks like you bought a moroso winged pan, and painted it black, expect 25 points.... 4 hours ago, enginerd said: I would have agreed with you here, except that the BoD just removed the words from the rulebook (that they just added in October?) saying that items made from repurposed parts / metal will be valued at the fixed point cost of whatever was made. I very much disagree with this... I think that new rule should have stayed... but since they removed it I don't think they have a leg to stand on if you show up with a new intake manifold made from rolled up sheet metal that you cut out of your roof. I hope that someone does this and they don't like it and then they put that text back in. The only thing that has me skeptical... is that they didnt have this rule before... but still charged points and indicated they would... the fact that they tried to add something to the rule book clarifying it, and then went back and undid it in the rule book, doesnt in my mind indicate a change from the prior year rules... Yes I mean attaching my stock plastic side trim lower to make side skirts should clearly now be zero points, as should the upside down trunk... I also think that like in other areas, removal of materials will be easier than adding... I could probably cut 4" out of my stock intake runners, and weld em back up for free... but if I cut the runners and make a new log... I guess we will all need clarification from the new tech. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 23 hours ago, enginerd said: I would have agreed with you here, except that the BoD just removed the words from the rulebook (that they just added in October?) saying that items made from repurposed parts / metal will be valued at the fixed point cost of whatever was made. I very much disagree with this... I think that new rule should have stayed... but since they removed it I don't think they have a leg to stand on if you show up with a new intake manifold made from rolled up sheet metal that you cut out of your roof. I hope that someone does this and they don't like it and then they put that text back in. Wait, the repurposed parts on the fixed value list rule is gone? When did that happen? How did I miss that? So much for the "we can't release the next years BCCR as a provisional rulebook for a month to allow public comment and review" suggestion I made when they dropped everything. Seems like that's exactly what happened, except instead of public discussion driving the decision, it's private emails and who knows how many threats from well to do teams claiming they'll take their entry fees elsewhere if they don't get their way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 21 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said: Wait, the repurposed parts on the fixed value list rule is gone? When did that happen? How did I miss that? So much for the "we can't release the next years BCCR as a provisional rulebook for a month to allow public comment and review" suggestion I made when they dropped everything. Seems like that's exactly what happened, except instead of public discussion driving the decision, it's private emails and who knows how many threats from well to do teams claiming they'll take their entry fees elsewhere if they don't get their way. I think that revised rule deserves a lot more consideration before they put it into effect as it was written. IMO, to charge the Danger Racing SC300 10 points for a "spoiler" because they cleverly massaged the rear decklid sheetmetal is asinine. Using that logic, modified hoods that decrease lift and increase cooling, modified/cut/bulged fenders that aid in aero and bleed out high pressure, etc. should all be points. But they're not. Nobody wants to make the rulebook thicker, but it is what it is. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Snorman said: I think that revised rule deserves a lot more consideration before they put it into effect as it was written. IMO, to charge the Danger Racing SC300 10 points for a "spoiler" because they cleverly massaged the rear decklid sheetmetal is asinine. Using that logic, modified hoods that decrease lift and increase cooling, modified/cut/bulged fenders that aid in aero and bleed out high pressure, etc. should all be points. But they're not. Nobody wants to make the rulebook thicker, but it is what it is. S. Once again, it's not the rule, or reversion there of that I am at odds with, but the process by which we got here that has me a bit, shall we say, miffed. Why does this keep happening? A rule is made or changed without real input from the owners (membership). The membership pushes back. The rule or change is reversed. Repeat Anyone know what the definition of insanity is? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 17 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said: Once again, it's not the rule, or reversion there of that I am at odds with, but the process by which we got here that has me a bit, shall we say, miffed. Why does this keep happening? A rule is made or changed without real input from the owners (membership). The membership pushes back. The rule or change is reversed. Repeat Anyone know what the definition of insanity is? As has been stated, the BOD does not require "real input from the owners" to change, add or delete a provision of the BCCR. Such a process would be a total clusterf*ck unless very strictly controlled. Perhaps you're confusing this with the petition process. For such changes, additions and deletions, the BoD probably should consult with the TAC. S. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 42 minutes ago, Snorman said: Such a process would be a total clusterf*ck unless very strictly controlled. As apposed to the complete sh*tshow and resulting nuclear fallout that has been the 2018 and 2019 rules/VPI releases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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