Clarification on Spec Miata Penskes

[Wink]

Just want to make sure before I put my order in.. These shocks can be run for zero points. Only points required to claim would be the coil over perches?

 

[ABR-Glen]

Assuming you would have to take 10pts for the coilover kit , unless there is there some "free" way to attach OEM size springs to these?

Edited December 7, 2018 by ABR-Glen

[Gearhead_42]

Do folks take a hit for spring perches on Billies right now? The perch on those is just a slip on fixed height collar as well, not welded on. 

Rightly or wrongly, I always thought "adjustable" was implicit in points hit "coilover kits" ... especially considering the OEM is the same configuration and size (just with a welded in place perch)

Edited December 7, 2018 by Gearhead_42

[JDChristianson]

^^ that’s been our take on it.  Fixed perch and stock diameter springs no points.   Threaded collar and adjustable perch is 10 per corner 

[Ray Franck]

 non adjustable spring perch within 2x cost = 0 points .

adjustable spring height within 2x cost = 10 points each .

adjustable dampening = 75 points each now , for 2019 = 25 points each

[mcoppola]

36 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

 non adjustable spring perch within 2x cost = 0 points .

adjustable spring height within 2x cost = 10 points each .

adjustable dampening = 75 points each now , for 2019 = 25 points each

@Ray Franck you forgot one.... (although it's kind of part of the "adjustable spring height within 2x cost")

non-OE spring that's not within 1/4" diameter of OE spring = 10 points per corner.

Edited December 7, 2018 by mcoppola

[tommytipover]

1 hour ago, Ray Franck said:

 non adjustable spring perch within 2x cost = 0 points .

adjustable spring height within 2x cost = 10 points each .

adjustable dampening = 75 points each now , for 2019 = 25 points each

 

My take has always been that spring diameter, not adjustable perch incurred the 10 points.

I don't know if anybody is doing it, but conceivably one could have <2x damper w/adjustable perch, and springs +/- .25' of stock for zero points. No?

 

This is how I read it.

 non adjustable spring perch Stock dia. spring, shock within 2x cost = 0 points .

adjustable spring height Non-stock dia. spring, shock within 2x cost = 10 points each .

adjustable dampening = 75 points each now , for 2019 = 25 points each

[Ray Franck]

50 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

@Ray Franck you forgot one.... (although it's kind of part of the "adjustable spring height within 2x cost")

non-OE spring that's not within 1/4" diameter of OE spring = 10 points per corner.

  The question was about shocks . I just can't win around here . And tommy can't read .

[thewheelerZ]

To me it has always been:

 

  - 2x shocks for non-adjustqable is zero points.  Never says anything about how its mounted.  

  - Springs same OEM diameter are free, never says anything about how they get mounted/perched.

  - Springs non-OEM diameter are 10 points "including coilovers"

 

I dont use non-OEM springs, so that last one doesnt really apply.  Made so that people can take points for the typical 2.5" springs at various rates and lengths.

 

Though, disclaimer, that is a bit of rules lawyering (when in Rome right?  Gotta try and find something to be sneaky about!!) and I never would have been surprised or upset if someone called me on it!

 

 

[tommytipover]

Just trying to help... Apparently these shocks are <2x and have a fixed perch.  They are free for CCES use, but in my opinion, only one of those attributes is addressed in the rules to make them so.

[mender]

Last spring I adjusted my porch so my wife could sit a little higher. I don't know if I got it within a 1/4" of where she wanted it but after painting it was definitely 2X what I thought it was going to cost.

[wvumtnbkr]

1 hour ago, tommytipover said:

 

My take has always been that spring diameter, not adjustable perch incurred the 10 points.

I don't know if anybody is doing it, but conceivably one could have <2x damper w/adjustable perch, and springs +/- .25' of stock for zero points. No?

 

This is how I read it.

 non adjustable spring perch Stock dia. spring, shock within 2x cost = 0 points .

adjustable spring height Non-stock dia. spring, shock within 2x cost = 10 points each .

adjustable dampening = 75 points each now , for 2019 = 25 points each

I don't think this is correct. 

 

If you can change the ride height by adjusting the spring, 10 pts. (Not including cutting)

 

If you have springs different than stock dimensions, also 10 points.

 

If you have different springs and adjustable height, 10 pts.

[thewheelerZ]

6 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If you can change the ride height by adjusting the spring, 10 pts. (Not including cutting)

 

 

FWIW, what rule makes you say this?

[Gearhead_42]

3 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

FWIW, what rule makes you say this?

Maybe this line on the tech sheet?

 

o Springs, non-OE coil springs (includes Coil-Over Kits)

[Gearhead_42]

14 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I don't think this is correct. 

 

If you can change the ride height by adjusting the spring, 10 pts. (Not including cutting)

 

If you have springs different than stock dimensions, also 10 points.

 

If you have different springs and adjustable height, 10 pts.

different  than Stock *diameters*   ID and OD... spring  free height/loaded height is not subject to that limit, that's the whole point, right?

 

adjustable height while on the car = "coilover kit" = 10 points

[wvumtnbkr]

9 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

different  than Stock *diameters*   ID and OD... spring  free height/loaded height is not subject to that limit, that's the whole point, right?

 

adjustable height while on the car = "coilover kit" = 10 points

Coilovers kit, to me, means height adjustable with standard type race springs.  This would include 2.5 inch race springs.

[wvumtnbkr]

10 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

different  than Stock *diameters*   ID and OD... spring  free height/loaded height is not subject to that limit, that's the whole point, right?

 

adjustable height while on the car = "coilover kit" = 10 points

Yea, I think you can go longer, shorter, etc on the springs for free if they are within the I'd od tolerance.

[tommytipover]

I hate a threadjack as much as the next guy, but this does show how reasonable people can disagree. We've got a pretty knowledgeable group here that have been interpreting differently, a rule that's been around a long time:

 

• springs, non-OE coil springs (including ‘coil-over’ kit): 10
pts per corner
Exemption: Competition vehicles may replace
OE coil springs for 0 pts provided that the
replacement maintains the exact same ID/OD
measurements as the OE spring (+/- 0.25”)

 

So what's the order of operation here? Once you put on a 'coil over' kit, the rest of the paragraph no longer applies to your car?

Neither the shock rule or the spring rule assigns points for adjustable perch.

Not trying to be argumentative, truly looking for clarification, but the way I read it's, spring diameter, not perch style defines the points hit.

If that's not the case, I believe the rule could be written better.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by tommytipover

[Wink]

Soooo... Penskes are legal... Got it

 

yall carry on with your rambling 

[The Aero Man]

48 minutes ago, tommytipover said:

I hate a threadjack as much as the next guy, but this does show how reasonable people can disagree. We've got a pretty knowledgeable group here that have been interpreting differently, a rule that's been around a long time:

 

• springs, non-OE coil springs (including ‘coil-over’ kit): 10
pts per corner
Exemption: Competition vehicles may replace
OE coil springs for 0 pts provided that the
replacement maintains the exact same ID/OD
measurements as the OE spring (+/- 0.25”)

 

So what's the order of operation here? Once you put on a 'coil over' kit, the rest of the paragraph no longer applies to your car?

Neither the shock rule or the spring rule assigns points for adjustable perch.

Not trying to be argumentative, truly looking for clarification, but the way I read it's, spring diameter, not perch style defines the points hit.

If that's not the case, I believe the rule could be written better.

 

 

My interpretation is if you take the 10pts a corner for the coil over kit, you can do whatever you want with springs.

They probably added that exemption in so it was more clear that you could cut the stock springs if you wanted.

[mindspin311]

Can we rewind to the fact that this is probably not actually a $200/corner shock, and rather some price-fixed deal between SCCA/NASA and Penske? Feels slightly questionable.

 

Guess I need to talk to MCS about a non-adjustable shock for our E30s. Just invoice us at about $150/corner. But we'll pay the legit cost under the table.

[Racer7x]

2 hours ago, Wink said:

Soooo... Penskes are legal... Got it

 

yall carry on with your rambling 

 

 

So how much are the penske's $$ wise compared to an oe replacements??

 

 

[ABR-Glen]

52 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Can we rewind to the fact that this is probably not actually a $200/corner shock, and rather some price-fixed deal between SCCA/NASA and Penske? Feels slightly questionable.

 

Guess I need to talk to MCS about a non-adjustable shock for our E30s. Just invoice us at about $150/corner. But we'll pay the legit cost under the table.

 Anyone can buy these shocks at the listed price. The 2X rule is about values based on retail prices, not actual "cost" to develop/produce something.

 

If you or whomever wants to subsidize custom non-adjustable E30 shocks, that's fine as long as you make enough for everyone and sell them at a price under 2X. Some platforms get more aftermarket support based on volume than others, E30's definitely aren't hurting in that department.

 

I think the argument you are trying to make here would be better directed at ecotec swap kits that have special pricing just for Champcar vs the general market.

[Racer7x]

1 hour ago, mindspin311 said:

Can we rewind to the fact that this is probably not actually a $200/corner shock, and rather some price-fixed deal between SCCA/NASA and Penske? Feels slightly questionable.

 

Guess I need to talk to MCS about a non-adjustable shock for our E30s. Just invoice us at about $150/corner. But we'll pay the legit cost under the table.

 

 

If there a special end of the year discount from one vendor on these I'd see an issue with that concerning the 2x rule...

 

What is the price on these straight from penske??

 

[Jer]

58 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

I think the argument you are trying to make here would be better directed at ecotec swap kits that have special pricing just for Champcar vs the general market.

huh?  Where was this when I bought MY kit!?