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Flagtronics in car race flagging system

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People complain about how there's so much PUY

 

Solution gets developed that can, and will, definitely help alleviate the problem

 

People complain that it probably wont work and that they don't want to buy it

 

 

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We have tested the system a few times. I found it very helpful at night at vir. With limited flag stand visibility it gave me the confidence to go 100%. With all the bugs worked out my team will definitely own one. Something to think about at tracks with elevation changes how nice would it be to know the caution is out before you pile into a blind corner with bad flag stand positioning.

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7 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

People complain about how there's so much PUY

 

Solution gets developed that can, and will, definitely help alleviate the problem

 

People complain that it probably wont work and that they don't want to buy it

 

 

Folks ignore lights and gauges on the dash all the time and blow up the engine, why will they not ignore this too>?  We have exactly one pass under yellow penalty  in 5 years.  It can and will happen again I'm sure.    Like I said,  maybe we will get one someday, maybe we won't.  Its cool if it stays an option and not a requirement.  edit.  At night I seems to make more sense to me.  

 

Edited by JDChristianson
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Arca has done this for years, although they are just full course yellow or green, which eliminates the need for gps.

 

Does race control have to actively update the yellows being flown into software,  or do they do this anyway as part of the communication and you just tap into it? Will be an interesting debate when someone gets a puc penalty but the light was not on. Champcars fault then, or still up to the driver? When this gets sorted out it will be a gamechanger if the input data is consistent. 

 

Can you work on a loudspeaker\electromagnet next that i can use to push cars in front of me that crawl around during yellows? 

Edited by Black Magic
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26 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

Will be an interesting debate when someone gets a puc penalty but the light was not on. Champcars fault then, or still up to the driver?

 

There is no debate.  when a corner worker has a yellow flag in his hand and watches you pass another car.  doesn't matter what your dash says. 

 

F1 uses a system like this, corner workers are the rule.  the dash is just an aid.

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I am really impressed with all of the features that were packed into this system. I would have never thought to add a pit lane timer, which is awesome.  No more having the timer fall off or get put on with an incorrect number! (assuming Champcar would allow you to use it instead of the egg timer) 

 

Other things I like:

Reduced speed differentials at re-starts

Less passing under yellow

No more wondering if that black flag is for you

 

This all sounds like a huge benefit to not only driver safety, but also to race control efficiency.  I don't understand why people are so skeptical.  We currently rely on a transponder (which allegedly costs way more than this) to record lap times.  Assuming it proves to be reliable, I wouldn't have an issue with this being series mandated.

 

Is there a way to add a feature to tell people to speed the F*** up when they are being a second pace car?

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45 minutes ago, jakks said:

I’m almost happier to see pit in and pit out won’t have to deal with those kitchen timers. 

I don’t see this, at its current capabilities, replacing the timers. Maybe with something added to it, like a data file logging exactly when each car reached each sector which could be checked after the race. 

 

Would the pit-out workers lean into each car and wait until the counter gets to 5 or would the pit-out procedure become: stop for inspection, leave on own volition, stop duration data file check during/after race.

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3 hours ago, enginerd said:

I don’t see this, at its current capabilities, replacing the timers. Maybe with something added to it, like a data file logging exactly when each car reached each sector which could be checked after the race. 

 

Would the pit-out workers lean into each car and wait until the counter gets to 5 or would the pit-out procedure become: stop for inspection, leave on own volition, stop duration data file check during/after race.

My understanding is your pitout time would be send back to race control live as it happens. Leave on your own violation would be similar to other series using RFIDs for pit timing.

Edited by morganf

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7 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Folks ignore lights and gauges on the dash all the time and blow up the engine, why will they not ignore this too>?  We have exactly one pass under yellow penalty  in 5 years.  It can and will happen again I'm sure.    Like I said,  maybe we will get one someday, maybe we won't.  Its cool if it stays an option and not a requirement.  edit.  At night I seems to make more sense to me.  

 

I don't think it's about preventing passing under yellow is as much as preventing you from smashing into a stopped car between flag stands as demonstrated in this Daytona crash featured in the video. I am not that is would have prevented it but there certainly could have been a yellow light flashing for few seconds before:

 

Edited by morganf
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7 minutes ago, morganf said:

I don't think it's about preventing passing under yellow is as much as preventing you from smashing into a stopped car between flag stands as demonstrated in this Daytona crash featured in the video. I am not that is would have prevented it but there certainly could have been a yellow light flashing for few seconds before.

 

Or that multi-car crash at road Atlanta a few years ago on the back straight just past the bridge.

Edited by enginerd

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5 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Or that infamous crash at road Atlanta a few years ago on the back straight just past the bridge.

Yes, or this 

 

Edited by morganf

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58 minutes ago, morganf said:

I don't think it's about preventing passing under yellow is as much as preventing you from smashing into a stopped car between flag stands as demonstrated in this Daytona crash featured in the video. I am not that is would have prevented it but there certainly could have been a yellow light flashing for few seconds before:

 

Ok, was there a yellow flag flying for these incidents?   If not, there wouldn’t have been a yellow light either would there?     

 

Its not like I’m 100% against it.    And if I were a betting man, I’d bet it’s in the rules that we have to spend the money for it for 2020.    They don’t have to sell us on it just management. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Ok, was there a yellow flag flying for these incidents?   If not, there wouldn’t have been a yellow light either would there?     

 

Its not like I’m 100% against it.    And if I were a betting man, I’d bet it’s in the rules that we have to spend the money for it for 2020.    They don’t have to sell us on it just management. 

 

 

The flag box with GPS could have self reported a stopped car at X spot on the track to race control and caused a yellow to be triggered sooner.

Edited by morganf
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9 minutes ago, morganf said:

The flag box with GPS could have self reported a stopped car at X pot on the track to race control and caused a yellow to be triggered sooner.

That’d be cool.  

 

When does that yellow go out?  I just have questions.    So if we want screw with the leader just slow way down so their yellow light comes on.?    

 

I’m going to start saving pop can money to buy this baby.  It’s comiong. And it will be fine 

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12 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

That’d be cool.  

 

When does that yellow go out?  I just have questions.    So if we want screw with the leader just slow way down so their yellow light comes on.?    

 

I’m going to start saving pop can money to buy this baby.  It’s comiong. And it will be fine 

Yes if you slow/stop on the track to screw with the leader, yes this box should help keep them from hitting you. Remember under yellow you can pass the disabled/wrecked car causing the yellow.

Edited by morganf

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8 minutes ago, morganf said:

Yes if you slow/stop on the track to screw with the leader, yes this box should help keep them from hitting you. Remember under yellow you can pass the disabled/wrecked car causing the yellow.

You do realize I’m teasing right? 

 

 

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Thanks for all the support and feedback y'all! CCES is where we race and have been doing our development work. It's where the product is reaching maturity.

I envision this system similar to an in car fire suppression system. In the past, it wasn't required and was seen as extra cost, complexity, and weight. I think, as racers, we've recognized that a fire suppression system is an essential tool in promoting race safety. It doesn't replace the fire safety systems the corner workers and safety crews carry but does provide greatly improved safety to racers.

Flagging will always require eyes on the track. Flag Stands and Race Control will remain the authority on flagging where this in car flagging system is a driver aid. There are a large number of situations where an in car flagging with our feature set can greatly improve safety and efficiency for racers, for officials, & corner workers. 

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And now our fire suppression system will have to be SFI rated, recertified every 2 years, and replaced every 6. And I hear that we are also going to be required to purchase rain lights. Add that to belts and window nets with an expiration date. New helmet requirements are just around the corner. And I'm sure someone else will come along with a shiny new device that we will just HAVE to have to save the children.

 

I appreciate your had work at developing your product and I'm proud ChumpCar gets to be the proving ground, however I race in a budget racing series because I can't afford to race anywhere else.

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9 hours ago, Eman911 said:

And now our fire suppression system will have to be SFI rated, recertified every 2 years, and replaced every 6. And I hear that we are also going to be required to purchase rain lights. Add that to belts and window nets with an expiration date. New helmet requirements are just around the corner. And I'm sure someone else will come along with a shiny new device that we will just HAVE to have to save the children.

 

I appreciate your had work at developing your product and I'm proud ChumpCar gets to be the proving ground, however I race in a budget racing series because I can't afford to race anywhere else.

I feel you... I hate being safe too.

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5 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

I feel you... I hate being safe too.

 

There's a questionable safety increase by not allowing a window net that is one year out of SFI date, butvyet here we are replacing them anyways. 

 

The rest of the examples are of varying and increasing levels of value for safety.  

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10 hours ago, Eman911 said:

And now our fire suppression system will have to be SFI rated, recertified every 2 years, and replaced every 6. And I hear that we are also going to be required to purchase rain lights. Add that to belts and window nets with an expiration date. New helmet requirements are just around the corner. And I'm sure someone else will come along with a shiny new device that we will just HAVE to have to save the children.

 

I appreciate your had work at developing your product and I'm proud ChumpCar gets to be the proving ground, however I race in a budget racing series because I can't afford to race anywhere else.

 

I'm sure your wife, significant other, family, kids, etc. hate all the money you spent on safety. 🙄

 

My wife wasn't thrilled when I started racing ChampCar, but she is ecstatic about the safety stuff.  Showing her and the rest of my family the lengths we go thru to make sure we are as safe as possible helps them swallow that I need this addiction.

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My wife is a big Nascar fan - we've had season tickets to MIS for about 10 years, ever since the first time she joined me for a race there.

When I told her a few years back that I had to spend $5-600 on a HANS device, her reply was "You guys don't even go that fast."

Then I reminded her that our son drives the car too, and she said "well go ahead and buy one." (Tells me where I stand....)

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For those of you who believe that I am anti safety, let me assure you nothing could be further from the truth. Safety has been my profession for the last 17 years. The point I am trying to make is that we are at the point of diminishing returns. For example would you be willing to pay the salary of a crossing guard at every controlled intersection you cross while walking to work? After all people get run over crossing the street all the time. Another thing to consider is removing the driver from his responsibilities by applying technology. Have you ever encountered that guy who has no clue what way to go when his GPS enabled cellphone dies? I still carry paper maps and use them quite a bit. How about younger folks who have never driven a car without ABS  and traction control? How well will they be able to really know how to drive at the limit when the limit is determined by a computer? The law of unintended consequences then rears its ugly head when the ABS fails and the driver has never practiced an emergency stop without them. To carry my argument to the absurd, why not mandate self driving cars, after all they are safer right?

 

 

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