mender Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) With the change to the fuel cell rule regarding all the fuel components to be on the other side of a firewall, I'm wondering if my setup will still pass. I already had my fuel pumps, surge tank and filter/regulator on the other side of a firewall so by my understanding my system is compliant with the 2019 rule change even though I built it in 2013. Here's a picture showing my lift pump and surge tank with internal high pressure fuel pump sitting forward of the front firewall. Also seen forward of the firewall is my filler neck at the base of the windshield: This is the structure and bulkhead that I built for the fuel cell under the guidance of the regional tech inspector: This is a picture of my installed fuel cell inside the passenger compartment. It passed tech for five years and was checked by four tech inspectors. Edited January 2, 2019 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 2, 2019 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 Based on discussions we've had within the TAC with Tech inspectors, I believe that Tech's goal is to have ALL fuel system components bulkheaded to separate them from the driver. I believe your components forward of the firewall are fine. However, I think the intention will also require that you create a means of bulkheading the filler and vent tubes away from the driver, too. I wrote "I think" because I also have an exposed rubber portion of the filler tube in the interior of the car, and I've asked in TAC discussions with Tech if it needs to be covered in metal, but I have not gotten an answer to that question. My assumption, based on those conversations, is that yes, it must be isolated from the driver. I will need to write and provide pictures to Jay and Ray directly I guess, and suggest that you do the same. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Racing Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 @mcoppola please let us know the result! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 2, 2019 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) P.S. @mender I've read your description of the structure around your fuel cell, but this is the first time I've seen pictures of it without the cell installed. Very nicely done, indeed. Glad to see the additional bulkhead metal that surrounds the sides of the fuel cell's own metal canister. That is one of the requirements that Tech Inspectors have clarified and will enforce. To you, and @Wittenauer Racing, I'll let you know what I find out regarding covering the filler tube also. Another TAC member is going through great lengths right now to build a bulkhead shelf that covers the entire rear area of his hatchback car, including the fuel filler and vent tubes. As I said, that's our understanding of the intent of the rule. Edited January 2, 2019 by mcoppola 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slugworks Paul Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 I'm pretty certain that exposed vinyl filler necks are not acceptable under the new rules... While that stuff has good fuel resistance, it certainly doesn't resist heat/laceration/abrasion well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 I feel that clear fuel tube should be behind a bulkhead. Thats the issue we had brought up to Jay and Ray at Sebring. Our fuel filler neck is not behind a bulkhead, but its also 16 guage steel. If we added a cover around the filler neck made of aluminum, what is it gaining? if there is a leak, now the bulkheaded area is going to be full of fuel. The other issue we have is fuel lines, ours run thru the driver compartment inside the cage because there is no room under the car to safely run the lines. We have braided stainless lines, that are then wrapped in nylon. I feel very safe with them in our car and we made sure there is no fittings inside the car, one piece of line front to back. It was suggested we put them inside a metal tube encase of leaks, but my fear with that is you could then, 1. cheat with massive fuel lines and 2. fuel leaks would never be discovered until it was too late. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 MAybe if your filler neck was a little longer. Maybe in the side window up by the mirror. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRVOLKS Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 On the fuel filler tube and vent, is the the racing clear reinforced good for 2009? On the fuel lines to the front on the TT I used some of my stainless steel CNG lines in side the car with a aluminium shield cover too. www.DRVOLKS.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Racing Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 I agree with the concerns about soft vinyl tubing being cut in a crash, but hard piping the whole way to the cell (with no give anywhere) seems like a worse plan to me. Things need some give or else it stress-fatigues and cracks. Also interested to know the details on running braided stainless thru the car. Our under car options are "next to hot exhaust" or "where it will scrape in any off-track excursion", so we went internal with bulkhead fittings to go through the firewall and trunk. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 26 minutes ago, Wittenauer Racing said: I agree with the concerns about soft vinyl tubing being cut in a crash, but hard piping the whole way to the cell (with no give anywhere) seems like a worse plan to me. Things need some give or else it stress-fatigues and cracks. The give in our system is in the trunk behind the required bulkhead. There are no connection points for fuel anywhere in our cockpit area. We specifically did this to be safe. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Wittenauer Racing said: I agree with the concerns about soft vinyl tubing being cut in a crash, but hard piping the whole way to the cell (with no give anywhere) seems like a worse plan to me. Things need some give or else it stress-fatigues and cracks. Also interested to know the details on running braided stainless thru the car. Our under car options are "next to hot exhaust" or "where it will scrape in any off-track excursion", so we went internal with bulkhead fittings to go through the firewall and trunk. as Snake already said. ours has a give and a coupler, but its all behind the bulkhead so that there is no fuel connections inside driver compartment. If they change the rule and we can no longer have lines inside the car, we too are going to have to run them next to the hot exhaust and the spinning driveshaft. Ask Bill Riley how fuel lines next to a driveshaft work.. they had to write off a Viper GT3-R at Sebring. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurljohn Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Snake said: The give in our system is in the trunk behind the required bulkhead. There are no connection points for fuel anywhere in our cockpit area. We specifically did this to be safe. I would be concerned with having anything inside the cockpit that holds fuel. Seems to me you could reroute filler along your rear firewall and build a bulkhead with drain into rear compartment and still keep the extra capacity? Or reroute to stock fill location? I wonder which you will choose.... (green font) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 For your pressure fuel lines, you can always run them inside a tube for their pass thru the passenger compartment. Several pro race cars do this, and on the amateur side metal electrical conduit might be your cheapest option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, Hurljohn said: I would be concerned with having anything inside the cockpit that holds fuel. Seems to me you could reroute filler along your rear firewall and build a bulkhead with drain into rear compartment and still keep the extra capacity? Or reroute to stock fill location? I wonder which you will choose.... (green font) Stock fill location would not work, we tried that originally but since the cell is much higher in the car than the OEM fuel tank its not possible. we chose the rear window because its protected by the cage in the event of a impact. We also chose welded 16 gauge steel for safety. If we have to build a bulkhead around the filler neck we will, I just dont see added safety of some thin gauge aluminum tube sealed around a steel tube, basically once a bulkhead is bulit, you will never be able to inspect the fuel filler for leaks. (thats my concern) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, Black Magic said: For your pressure fuel lines, you can always run them inside a tube for their pass thru the passenger compartment. Several pro race cars do this, and on the amateur side metal electrical conduit might be your cheapest option. I asked Tech about this actually, my issues again were that i can no longer inspect lines that are inside the tube, but neither can tech. could easily now switch to much, much, much larger fuel line. hello another few gallons of fuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurljohn Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said: Stock fill location would not work, we tried that originally but since the cell is much higher in the car than the OEM fuel tank its not possible. we chose the rear window because its protected by the cage in the event of a impact. We also chose welded 16 gauge steel for safety. If we have to build a bulkhead around the filler neck we will, I just dont see added safety of some thin gauge aluminum tube sealed around a steel tube, basically once a bulkhead is bulit, you will never be able to inspect the fuel filler for leaks. (thats my concern) That is why I recommended the drain. Lots of aircraft have these types of drains to keep the combustibles away from heat sources and to also aid in fault detection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoparBoyy Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Hurljohn said: That is why I recommended the drain. Lots of aircraft have these types of drains to keep the combustibles away from heat sources and to also aid in fault detection. i'm not concerned about where it drains. i'm concerned that when prepping cars i would need to tear down a bulkhead and rebuild it every race. If there is fuel coming out of the drain, its too late. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said: i'm not concerned about where it drains. i'm concerned that when prepping cars i would need to tear down a bulkhead and rebuild it every race. If there is fuel coming out of the drain, its too late. Honestly, I’ve had stainless steel braided hose that aged out, looked fine, visual inspection perfect but leak like a sprinkler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotchkis23 Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 36 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Honestly, I’ve had stainless steel braided hose that aged out, looked fine, visual inspection perfect but leak like a sprinkler. That is how Crank Yankers car went up in flames last spring. Brand new braided oil line, had a tiny leak and sprayed oil all over the exhaust and whoosh! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted January 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said: I'm pretty certain that exposed vinyl filler necks are not acceptable under the new rules... While that stuff has good fuel resistance, it certainly doesn't resist heat/laceration/abrasion well. Actually it does. I did some tests on hose that I was changing out for maintenance and it's hard to puncture or cut with anything but a sharp knife, and it took over a minute for the hot inner flame of a propane torch to start some out-gassing inside the hose. That's a very concentrated amount of heat and temperature, much higher than a typical lazy fire from a leak. It's worth seeing for yourself. Edited January 2, 2019 by mender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted January 2, 2019 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, mender said: Actually it does. I did some tests on it and it's hard to puncture or cut with anything but a sharp knife, and it took over a minute for the hot inner flame of a propane torch to start some out-gassing inside the hose. That's a very concentrated amount of heat and temperature, much higher than a typical lazy fire from a leak. When it came to me, Champcar too the stance that 3/8" thick Lexan™ Flame Retardant Sheet (9034V) which is a UL-listed material for flammability (file no. 121562) could not be used as a sight window through the metal bulkhead. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, red0 said: Champcar too the stance that 3/8" thick Lexan™ Flame Retardant Sheet (9034V) which is a UL-listed material for flammability (file no. 121562) could not be used as a sight window through the metal bulkhead. That’s absurd. Edited January 2, 2019 by enginerd 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted January 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, red0 said: When it came to me, Champcar too the stance that 3/8" thick Lexan™ Flame Retardant Sheet (9034V) which is a UL-listed material for flammability (file no. 121562) could not be used as a sight window through the metal bulkhead. Sounds like a bit of shooting from the hip rather than doing some homework ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atxe30 Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) There's some crazy light Phenolic conduit that's rated to 1800 degrees to route lines in. But since its not metallic.....no go. Edit to add, I really wanted to use that since I'm running braided steel anyway..... Ended up with good old-fashioned alum flex conduit.. Edited January 2, 2019 by atxe30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted January 2, 2019 Report Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, red0 said: When it came to me, Champcar too the stance that 3/8" thick Lexan™ Flame Retardant Sheet (9034V) which is a UL-listed material for flammability (file no. 121562) could not be used as a sight window through the metal bulkhead. Yet you can run a car with no hood and a lexan windshield Edited January 2, 2019 by ABR-Glen 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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