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Fuel cell rule change

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6 minutes ago, ablesnead said:

If you spin in front of someone and they hit you ...you are at fault...own it !

Oh, I was at fault for being in his way when he went off, but that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to comment on his lack of avoidance.

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19 hours ago, ablesnead said:

If you spin in front of someone and they hit you ...you are at fault...own it !

Exactly

 

19 hours ago, mender said:

Um , yes, I do remember the "we didn't pick your car" argument but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. 

 

I was explaining a difference between car types that most people don't know about. Having driven formula cars at speed, I know what to expect and figured that I would share some information that might someday help someone either recover from a spin or avoid a car that has spun.

 

So, to elaborate on what went on in my car: the brake bias was quite a bit out that weekend (first time on track for a fresh build) and my job as the car builder and with the most racing experience (about thirty years) was to sort the car out. To do that, I was gradually working the car up to speed. I felt the car pivot but wasn't concerned as it was wide open at that corner (best place on the track to go off) so I let the car go around and off the track instead of trying to save it and possibly ending up stopped on-track broadside to traffic. Imagine my surprise as the car was finishing the half-turn and I saw the other car bearing down on my right door with the brakes locked up. I barely had time to straighten my head before the impact but still ended up with Grade ll whiplash from the violent spin from the hit. I was glad I had the containment seat and the HANS.

 

We did manage to fix the car and were out on track the next morning. After getting back from the weekend, I found out the master cylinder was defective and the front brakes were hardly working. Obviously the rears were just fine. ;) Next time at that track with good brakes I went from 23rd at the start to the lead on the first stint.

 

Here's a clip from a competitor's car of the Fiero's brakes working just a bit better; start watching at 3:20 - oh, and you'll also get to see what to do when a car gets into a tank slapper right in front of another car, and why sometimes it's better to go with a slide off the track instead of trying to save it. 

 

 You had said that your car is mid engined so it will spin on a different axis. You picked that car. You prepared that car. You

 

Maybe he should have gone sliding off the track, but he still should have put two feet in. Be predictable.

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9 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

Exactly

 

 You had said that your car is mid engined so it will spin on a different axis. You picked that car. You prepared that car. You

 

Maybe he should have gone sliding off the track, but he still should have put two feet in. Be predictable.

The point of the video was to show the resilience of a fuel cell filler neck thing, and then you guys started jumping all over it like a ‘who’s at fault?’ thread.

 

Chill out.

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25 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

You had said that your car is mid engined so it will spin on a different axis. You picked that car. You prepared that car. You

Gosh, that's true. I did pick my car; you can see the advantage of the mid-engine configuration in how well it gets off the corner. I did prepare the car: I've been prepping cars for about thirty years now and things still pop up at the first track session.

 

But I still don't understand your point. Try linking your statements together with something cohesive and maybe I will. 

26 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

Maybe he should have gone sliding off the track, but he still should have put two feet in. Be predictable.

I slid off the track away from the active racing line, in a straight line, instead of doing a tank slapper like the Probe did. I consider my actions much more predictable, at least to another driver that has raced before. As a racing instructor, I teach drivers to "keep driving it" and only to throw out the anchor if they have nothing left to try. "Two feet in" means giving up and hoping for the best. There are many options to consider before doing that.

 

Perhaps pondering this will help you understand what I'm talking about:

"High performance driving can kill you. This simple, brutal fact underlies our passion. Do you have the skills to avoid that? Spinning on track is one of the more dangerous things you can do. While not every HPDE event features a car spinning into a wall, it happens with regularity, and sometimes people are injured or even die. Spinning is often due to mixture of incompetence and exuberance, but even experienced drivers can get caught out by dirt or oil. What happens if you suddenly find yourself in danger? We don't rise to the occasion; we fall back on our training. And unless that training includes loss of traction and oversteer recovery, you might as well recite "in a spin, two feet in," and pray that the racing gods sort this out. I have bad news for you: they aren't very kind. You should take matters into your own hands. That means training yourself in dangerous situations so that you learn how to get out of them. By training, I mean what training means in other sports: drilling for hours upon hours until the actions become automatic."

 

As I alluded to earlier, I practice maintaining control in all situations and that most definitely includes spins. Part of my private pilot training was how to handle stalls and spins, and for good reason: to be able to react properly in an emergency. It's about going beyond the basics and filling your driver's tool box with useful things, not slamming the lid when something as little as a spin happens.  

 

I really wish the armchair crewchiefs would stop listening to the TV commentators and start thinking for themselves. Wishful thinking though; one of my drivers told me that he was "chattering the tires" at our last race weekend. He heard that during a NASCAR race and I guess he figured it sounded "racy".

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38 minutes ago, enginerd said:

The point of the video was to show the resilience of a fuel cell filler neck thing, and then you guys started jumping all over it like a ‘who’s at fault?’ thread.

 

Chill out.

Any discussion can be good if someone gets something out of it. :)

 

One of my other drivers has spun the Fiero at every track we've been to, sometimes several times but he's never been hit. This is the only time I have even done a half-loop in it, and I got hit. :rolleyes:

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On 1/4/2019 at 12:34 AM, atxe30 said:
On 1/3/2019 at 11:33 PM, Snorman said:

Is that FMC or FMT? If it's either, are you running fuel line through it and it's acting as a "bulkhead"? I don't think FMC will be allowed. 

S. 

 

i'm running stainless braided through it.

 

i don't even know where to go from there if that doesn't pass tech...

Have you tried FML?

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3 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

If one of ya could let this go it’d be ok 

 

what’s for dessert.?

Like that's on topic! :rolleyes:

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On 1/7/2019 at 8:41 AM, National Tech said:

Sorry if my "like lexan" comment was not specific enough.

 

  So here is my effort to improve. 

 

With the worries posed about the inability to check lines and fittings if you use the fire proof lexan (bring specification proof to tech), a site window would be acceptable. But  that would be only to see into the fuel fill port to prevent over filling,  or over the 6 X 9 fuel cell plate to do visual safety checks on fuel fittings and fuel lines coming out of the cell.  The window could be up to 6x9 inches.  

 

Again NO bulk heads floor to roof.

 

We all ready had a request to use lexan in that manner and it was not accepted by tec or the board.

 

Hope this helps and I am always available by text, email or phone.

 

 

I’m talking about a site window @enginerd

Edited by hcsi99

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The revised fuel cell and fuel components bulkhead rule is posted in the BCCR Tech updates section of the forum, and is updated in the BCCR. section 9.10. (Revisions are in red.)

Pay particular attention to a few things:

  • It goes into effect at the end of April 2019. Yes, some of us have some work to do to our cars, and yes, we lose the visual cue that your tank/filler tube is getting full, although Jay (National Tech) did weigh in and said a small portion of fire proof lexan/plastic may be allowed). So, although some will have work to do, I think that's a good plan to give everyone time to comply. (Perhaps we can get Jay's thoughts down in the update section too, to spell out what is allowed.)
  • Also note that flexible conduit is NOT allowed, and that the rule encompasses fuel, coolant and oil lines

I thought perhaps including oil lines was an oversight, due to the implications of cars having braided oil pressure lines running up to the dash area.

But after talking to @E. Tyler Pedersen about this, the oil pressure line was also looked at as a potential hazard if it leaks. I can understand this from a fire standpoint, as well as distracting and potentially dangerous if it sprays a driver and his feet with hot oil

I've been on the fence about portions of this new rule, and previously under the opinion that braided vent lines and oil lines should be ok as is, possibly even exposed Nascar style flexible filler hoses - but if there is a failure in any of these items, the implications of fire are never good.

So, although this is going to be painful for some folks, it definitely is less painful than the implications fire presents. I believe the BoD and Tech did the right thing in making all of our cars safer, and I'm glad they thought this over and are giving teams some time to comply.

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8 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

alrighty then. looks like I can ditch the conduit. nice.

read 9.10.2.12.3 please

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5 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

read 9.10.2.12.3 please

 

I did. My fuel lines are Aeroquip braided stainless, so no need to encase them according to the rule. Am I missing something?

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6 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

read 9.10.2.12.3 please

But what about this part @Ray Franck

9.10.3.5. Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines (including Aeroquip steel braided lines) (Effective 4/26/2019) that pass through the driving compartment must be metal or encased in continuous steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flexconduit is not acceptable. (Effective 4/26/2019) Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.)

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1 minute ago, atxe30 said:

 

I did. My fuel lines are Aeroquip braided stainless, so no need to encase them according to the rule. Am I missing something?

well yeah READ IT 

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Just now, mcoppola said:

But what about this part @Ray Franck

9.10.3.5. Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines (including Aeroquip steel braided lines) (Effective 4/26/2019) that pass through the driving compartment must be metal or encased in continuous steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flexconduit is not acceptable. (Effective 4/26/2019) Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.)

 

wait, so "that pass through the driving compartment must be metal" does not mean stainless braided?? what exactly does "must be metal mean? come on....

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ok,. so I guess I'll go rip all that conduit out and hope the expensive fuel lines I just sized and terminated  for that approach still work....sigh......

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is the conduit you used sealed ,leak proof . flex ?

3 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

ok,. so I guess I'll go rip all that conduit out and hope the expensive fuel lines I just sized and terminated  for that approach still work....sigh......

 

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not worth discussing further. i implemented according to the published 2019 rules prior to this revision. i will be pissed for a bit, have a beer or three and burn another weekend on this particular item. is what it is....

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14 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

But what about this part @Ray Franck

9.10.3.5. Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines (including Aeroquip steel braided lines) (Effective 4/26/2019) that pass through the driving compartment must be metal or encased in continuous steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flexconduit is not acceptable. (Effective 4/26/2019) Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.)

 

7 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

continuous steel or aluminum  tube  = will not leak . 

 

3 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

is the conduit you used sealed ,leak proof . flex ?

 

@Ray Franck you've really got me confused now too. Doesn't the red, underlined, bold area I highlighted above mean that flex conduit is not acceptable? I mean, that's exactly what the words say, isn't it - that (including Aeroquip steel braided lines) also need to be encased in non flexible conduit? Please explain.

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