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Fuel cell rule change

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15 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

 

 

@Ray Franck you've really got me confused now too. Doesn't the red, underlined, bold area I highlighted above mean that flex conduit is not acceptable? I mean, that's exactly what the words say, isn't it - that (including Aeroquip steel braided lines) also need to be encased in non flexible conduit? Please explain.

 SORRY  I misquoted yes all lines must be run inside continuous , meaning leak proof, metal tube

Edited by Ray Franck
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Ok, sorry for the confusion, wanted to make sure I understand and didn't post something incorrect.

TAC wasn't privy to the discussions when the rule was formulated, but the red areas seemed pretty clear to me that any type of flex conduit over rubber and/or braided Aeroquip lines, is not acceptable.

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2 hours ago, atxe30 said:

not worth discussing further. i implemented according to the published 2019 rules prior to this revision. i will be pissed for a bit, have a beer or three and burn another weekend on this particular item. is what it is....

Not to be a downer, but you probably paid a ~$1.00/ft for that stuff and if you paid more, you got ripped. You couldn't have much money into it, and it's not like you're bending tubing to make it work. 
S. 

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To confirm: Steel OEM fuel lines inside the cockpit are ok and do not need to be isolated from the driver or encased in tubing? 

Edited by rod rammage

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7 hours ago, Snorman said:

Not to be a downer, but you probably paid a ~$1.00/ft for that stuff and if you paid more, you got ripped. You couldn't have much money into it, and it's not like you're bending tubing to make it work. 
S. 

 

has nothing to do with material cost and everything to do with time. 

 

edit to add, unless installing tubing means i have to reload on one of the already installed Aeroquip lines, as that would be a drag

Edited by atxe30

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6 hours ago, rod rammage said:

To confirm: Steel OEM fuel lines inside the cockpit are ok and do not need to be isolated from the driver or encased in tubing? 

 if they are in good shape recommended not required

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6 hours ago, rod rammage said:

To confirm: Steel OEM fuel lines inside the cockpit are ok and do not need to be isolated from the driver or encased in tubing? 

 

Steel lines.  Rule does not state it needs to be OEM.

 

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On 1/7/2019 at 8:41 AM, National Tech said:

Sorry if my "like lexan" comment was not specific enough.

 

  So here is my effort to improve. 

 

With the worries posed about the inability to check lines and fittings if you use the fire proof lexan (bring specification proof to tech), a site window would be acceptable. But  that would be only to see into the fuel fill port to prevent over filling,  or over the 6 X 9 fuel cell plate to do visual safety checks on fuel fittings and fuel lines coming out of the cell.  The window could be up to 6x9 inches.  

 

Again NO bulk heads floor to roof.

 

We all ready had a request to use lexan in that manner and it was not accepted by tec or the board.

 

Hope this helps and I am always available by text, email or phone.

 

 

Is the 6"x9" fire proof lexan site window still going to be acceptable?  I didn't see any mention of this in the updated BCCR.  

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9.10.2.7. ALL FUEL CELLS AND FUEL COMPONENTS MUST BE ENCLOSED IN A METAL CANISTER / ENCLOSURE. 9.10.2.7.1. All fuel cells and fuel components (fill tubes, vent lines, etc)(Effective 4/26/2019) shall be separated from the driver compartment by a metal bulkhead

9.10.2.12.2.  The fuel components (fill tubes, vent lines, etc) must be separated by a metal bulkhead. (Effective 4/26/2019)

 

Will this mean that hatchback type cars must devise a means of isolating the metal fuel fill pipes from the driver compartment, with some type of metallic covering, wall, divider, barrier, or bulkhead? 

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29 minutes ago, rod rammage said:

9.10.2.7. ALL FUEL CELLS AND FUEL COMPONENTS MUST BE ENCLOSED IN A METAL CANISTER / ENCLOSURE. 9.10.2.7.1. All fuel cells and fuel components (fill tubes, vent lines, etc)(Effective 4/26/2019) shall be separated from the driver compartment by a metal bulkhead

9.10.2.12.2.  The fuel components (fill tubes, vent lines, etc) must be separated by a metal bulkhead. (Effective 4/26/2019)

 

Will this mean that hatchback type cars must devise a means of isolating the metal fuel fill pipes from the driver compartment, with some type of metallic covering, wall, divider, barrier, or bulkhead? 

 

Or do a 'chimney" around it (tube inside metal tube or box), which would most likely be easier.

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Yeah, the run of the fill pipe exposed in the passenger compartment is quite short, so even a sheet metal panel or "metallic tent"  would be not too hard to fashion  over the area of the metal fill pipe.

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3 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Or do a 'chimney" around it (tube inside metal tube or box), which would most likely be easier.

 

4 hours ago, rod rammage said:

9.10.2.7. ALL FUEL CELLS AND FUEL COMPONENTS MUST BE ENCLOSED IN A METAL CANISTER / ENCLOSURE. 9.10.2.7.1. All fuel cells and fuel components (fill tubes, vent lines, etc)(Effective 4/26/2019) shall be separated from the driver compartment by a metal bulkhead

9.10.2.12.2.  The fuel components (fill tubes, vent lines, etc) must be separated by a metal bulkhead. (Effective 4/26/2019)

 

Will this mean that hatchback type cars must devise a means of isolating the metal fuel fill pipes from the driver compartment, with some type of metallic covering, wall, divider, barrier, or bulkhead? 

this is from Mike I read it as if you use a metal fill tube in the open hatch back it is good 

This what I asked  1-8-2019

 

Thanks Mike

One thing in the rules on fuel cell and cover them

So the clear fire retardant filler hose cannot be use in the drivers space can we use alum tubing rules say steel?

And on the side rear window on the TT I use Lexan and run the filler there do I need to swap it out for alum?

On splitter can I add a filler from splitter to bumper 3 inch without taking a hit on points?

And on pit stops no fueling in/ out as fast as we can do a driver change?

And would be so kind to drop the TT next year on points Please.

Will see you a WG in June.

 

Thanks,

 

Bob Mann

Dr. Volks

 

 

Metal, of any kind, can be used for fuel.

 

Window can be lexan, but the fill tube must be metal or separated from driver by metal.

 

Tech has say on filler panel for front end.

 

You can fuel while changing drivers.     ( I read  no drive in when fueling????)

 

Mike

Edited by DRVOLKS

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Thanks Dr Volks. Was your question to Mike about exposed metal fill tubes in the driver's compartment?
It appears that as of 4/26/2019, that metal fill pipe in the driver's compartment must be sheltered or sealed off by a metal shroud or metal covering. I plan to fabricate a small shroud that cordons off the area where the metal fill pipe takes a short trip from the rear quarter panel through the back seat area to the floor in a hatchback type car.

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11 minutes ago, rod rammage said:

Thanks Dr Volks. Was your question to Mike about exposed metal fill tubes in the driver's compartment?
It appears that as of 4/26/2019, that metal fill pipe in the driver's compartment must be sheltered or sealed off by a metal shroud or metal covering. I plan to fabricate a small shroud that cordons off the area where the metal fill pipe takes a short trip from the rear quarter panel through the back seat area to the floor in a hatchback type car.

Yes

In the TT the cell is covered and the filler tube was fire retarded plastic I did have a aluminum  fill tube too . but you still use a rubber or fire retarded plastic  to contact the tube to the cell and the side filler   

If that is the case on 4/2019 I will just do a wrap job and be done with it as you can see Mike dos not spell it out much!!!

Edited by DRVOLKS

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I see. But the replies to my earlier question and on on the Facebook page all affirm that the metal fuel filler must be isolated from the driver by a metal separation as of 4/26/2019. Maybe Mike's answer to your question was made prior to the latest revision to the BCCR that occurred yesterday? 

Edited by rod rammage
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Despite what mike or anyone else said prior to yesterday, the rule book is in play and is the official word.
All fuel components must be separated from the passenger compartment by a firewall. The fuel filler. no matter the material, must be separated by a metal firewall.

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On 1/17/2019 at 4:01 PM, mcoppola said:

The revised fuel cell and fuel components bulkhead rule is posted in the BCCR Tech updates section of the forum, and is updated in the BCCR. section 9.10. (Revisions are in red.)

Pay particular attention to a few things:

  • It goes into effect at the end of April 2019. Yes, some of us have some work to do to our cars, and yes, we lose the visual cue that your tank/filler tube is getting full, although Jay (National Tech) did weigh in and said a small portion of fire proof lexan/plastic may be allowed). So, although some will have work to do, I think that's a good plan to give everyone time to comply. (Perhaps we can get Jay's thoughts down in the update section too, to spell out what is allowed.)
  • Also note that flexible conduit is NOT allowed, and that the rule encompasses fuel, coolant and oil lines

I thought perhaps including oil lines was an oversight, due to the implications of cars having braided oil pressure lines running up to the dash area.

But after talking to @E. Tyler Pedersen about this, the oil pressure line was also looked at as a potential hazard if it leaks. I can understand this from a fire standpoint, as well as distracting and potentially dangerous if it sprays a driver and his feet with hot oil

I've been on the fence about portions of this new rule, and previously under the opinion that braided vent lines and oil lines should be ok as is, possibly even exposed Nascar style flexible filler hoses - but if there is a failure in any of these items, the implications of fire are never good.

So, although this is going to be painful for some folks, it definitely is less painful than the implications fire presents. I believe the BoD and Tech did the right thing in making all of our cars safer, and I'm glad they thought this over and are giving teams some time to comply.

Finally got around to dragging my old NASCAR rule book out to see what they require:

"The oil pressure line to the oil pressure gauge and/or oil pressure sending unit must be stainless steel, full coverage, outer braid protected synthetic rubber hose attached with threaded, nipple design hose end fittings, should be covered with flame resistant covering acceptable to NASCAR Officials."

 

In other words, the usual ss braided hose is good enough for NASCAR for containment in the cockpit but should be covered with a flame resistant covering for what I assume is the portion going to the pressure sending unit in the engine compartment. 

Edited by mender
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 Yes every fuel component will be seperated from the driver on every car . The fix for hoses in driver compartments.  Home Depot has  3/4 electrical conduit less that $5 for a 9' piece and a bender is less than$50 , of corse you can borrow or rent one . Choose an area away from exaust to run your lines drill a 3/4 hole through the firewall and rear seat back floor area ,low is good, bend and contour conduit to your liking . Might even make it a straight shot along the tunnel . Make your conduit longer so it will pass through the firewall and rear about an inch on each end  and secure with collars or tack weld . Push your hose through and put the fittings back on and hook them up , done not hard or expensive . If your hose leaks it will drip out the ends and on the ground instead of soaking your driver suit and filling your floors with gas ,kind of dangerous right  Sparky .

   For those that think steel braded hoses are perfect and last forever they are not . While top quality ones last a long time some may look good but are crap from the git go - how long were they laying in a warehouse in Typan and were they ever designed for fuel in the first place . 

   Hope this helps,  any questions can be answered on the tech line or you can PM me here and I'll do my best .

 

Edited by Ray Franck
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2 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

 Yes every fuel component will be seperated from the driver on every car . The fix for hoses in driver compartments.  Home Depot has  3/4 electrical conduit less that $5 for a 8' piece and a bender is less than$50 , of corse you can borrow or rent one . Choose an area away from exaust to run your lines drill a 3/4 hole through the firewall and rear seat back floor area ,low is good, bend and contour conduit to your liking . Might even make it a straight shot along the tunnel . Make your conduit longer so it will pass through the firewall and rear about an inch on each end  and secure with collars or tack weld . Push your line through and put the fittings back on and hook them up , done not hard or expensive . If your hose leaks it will drip out the ends and on the ground instead of soaking your driver suit and filling your floors with gas ,kind of dangerous right  Sparky .

   For those that think steel braded hoses are perfect and last forever they are not . While top quality ones last a long time some may look good but are crap from the git go - how long were they laying in a warehouse in Typan and were they ever designed for fuel in the first place . 

   Hope this helps,  any questions can be answered on the tech line or you can PM me here and I'll do my best .

 

 

However metal fuel lines (steel is not specified) are acceptable in the driver compartment, correct?   Metal lines are not specified as needing to be in conduit.  Your first sentance confuses me on that distinction.  

 

I am running our fuel lines this coming weekend and want to be sure we pass tech.   

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I believe I said hoses  why yes yes I did say hoses -  the fix for hoses in the driver compartment . Steel lines in good condition do not need to be but it is recomended . You could just do it anyway you will surely pass with no worries 

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16 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

I believe I said hoses  why yes yes I did say hoses -  the fix for hoses in the driver compartment . Steel lines in good condition do not need to be but it is recomended . You could just do it anyway you will surely pass with no worries 

You also said:

 Yes every fuel component will be seperated from the driver on every car

and solid metal fuel lines ARE fuel components...

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On 1/3/2019 at 1:45 PM, atxe30 said:

this is what i did to run the fuel lines. the lift pumps, surge tank and hp pump are all in the trunk area. haven't tacked everything down yet in done/done/done mode, but you get the idea. 56798386317__8DF52CDB-C588-45A6-8140-7D5A440EBB7E.thumb.jpg.b2617ca21ce728afe2966a6a2073186c.jpg

 

56798383819__DABADEBA-A780-4F3F-8055-93DD2EC1CEF3.thumb.jpg.bba68d8f6bb02ed7db7b94e398abd838.jpg

Am I the only one that had this come to mind?

 

image.thumb.png.ebcf40e8b4b03ad0bd538104b726ca52.png

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

You also said:

 

 

and solid metal fuel lines ARE fuel components...

Well ok  ,  I tried  

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22 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

I believe I said hoses  why yes yes I did say hoses -  the fix for hoses in the driver compartment . Steel lines in good condition do not need to be but it is recomended . You could just do it anyway you will surely pass with no worries 

 

Steel tube fuel lines are not specified in the rules.  The rule book states "metal lines".  The lines I am running are metal (aluminum), so I want to be sure as I hate to redo things, bending lines is not one of my favorite things to do and I am installing bare aluminum fuel lines preferably not in conduit.

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