Jump to content
hotchkis23

Swap Calculator is Live!

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I think the panties are wadded because two of the cars with the most erroneous weights are

1) the car with the most wins in champcar history (e30),

 

 

Also the chassis with the most races in champcar history.  

 

Causation =/= correlation

statistics are in the eye of the beer-holder

 

and all that jazz

 

The above posts are basically (ban the m50 e30) and (ban the v6mr2) with different words

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, chip said:

If the m50 swapped e30 is to remain at 500 (or less), then modifying the weight multiplier in the formula would require tweaking some of the other variables.

Here's an excerpt from an email I sent last May to Champcar, just after the latest E30 weight change was discovered:

 

"I'm writing to you to make sure you're aware of the enormity of the swap weight change on the E30. A simple adjustment that should have been made to one car, the E30, was made using the wrong means IMHO and will have some major unforeseen consequences.

 

Here's the situation:

The E30 recently was adjusted to allow the use of the M50 without incurring a penalty lap by staying at 500 points after swap calculation. That's fine, but it should have been accomplished by a specific change (#1), not a global one (#2).

 

1. The base VPi should have been lowered by the amount needed to get the swapped car to 500 points: 450 before, 443 after. Very clear as to what happened and why, with no other cars being affected in either direction. The E30s that swap to the M50 end up at 500 points so they can't do anything other than swapping, and the E30s that don't swap have an extra 7 points to play with, a very minor difference.

2. By adjusting the swap list weight, a precedent was set to allow every other car on the list to do the same. At present, the criteria for weight on the list is so lax as to be useless for its original purpose. To return the swap formula to usefulness, a reasonable and more realistic method of selecting the appropriate swap weights should be used.

 

Also, allowing the use of a turbo car weight without the turbo VPi allows for double-dipping. In the case of the MR2, the difference is 223 points when at the upper end of the swap formula.

 

I believe that for the good of Champ, VPi should be the main means to make adjustments and that the swap weight list criteria should be reviewed with the intent of stabilizing that list."

 

And here we are today, discussing what can be done to rectify one or two of those "unforeseen consequences".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Huggy said:

 

Also the chassis with the most races in champcar history.  

 

Causation =/= correlation

statistics are in the eye of the beer-holder

 

and all that jazz

 

The above posts are basically (ban the m50 e30) and (ban the v6mr2) with different words

 

Better stated as "if you can't build an E30 or MR2 within the same rules as everyone else, too bad."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, chip said:

That's my take on this- The weight is just one of the variables used to produce the expected results (ie m50 swapped e30 = 500)

I still don't understand why some people have their panties all in a wad regarding the weight variable in the formula.  Who cares other than a select few, and does it really matter in the end?  The weight variable is just one of the numbers used and it doesn't matter if it matches anybodies real race weight for a specific car.  As the real race weights for any given car are completely different from team to team, car to car.

If the m50 swapped e30 is to remain at 500 (or less), then modifying the weight multiplier in the formula would require tweaking some of the other variables.

 

22 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I think the panties are wadded because two of the cars with the most erroneous weights are

1) the car with the most wins in champcar history (e30),

2) the car that might have the most FTDs of any car make in champcar history (swapped MR2)

 

Cars that have had success. Not sure a pinto with an erroneous weight would have set the world on fire.

 

Their erroneous weights allowed motor swaps that on a power to weight basis would not be allowed in most other cars at 50 points. They got to break the power to weight intention of the swap calculator in a pretty big way, maybe it was offset in starting vpi, maybe it wasn't (hard to justify that for the mr2). 

 

In the end we just need to know what motors are allowed in what cars. I would think some element of the swap calc math would be used by tech\tac to set allowed engines, and a egregious motor allowance for a highly successful car would still be possible, but hopefully as a conscious value set by a person or group after thought, rather than a clever math manipulation of an online calculator by a car owner in his underwear at 3 am.....  

 

The goal (I hope) would be to reduce the amount of doctoring we have to do with starting vpi, weights, which vpi to use when swapping, etc to make sure people can't break the parity with an excel function, and instead have pre determined values for a "combo" that seem appropriate with similar types of cars getting similar values\capabilities. The more silly things we (Tac\tech) have to account for, like possible swap combos vs speed of unswapped car (how to set base vpi), radiator size, coolers yes\no, how much discount for disproportionate fuel capacity, available spare material to make free parts from....the less accurate the total VPI to performance correlation is gonna be. 

Regarding the 2nd post quoted above - 

@Black Magic  Drew - thanks for having the balls to post this!

Yes, indeed that's the reason many members have their panties in a bunch  (correction) - members with common sense and knowledge are PISSED OF because they know that these false weights allowed some team's cars to skirt the rules to come up with a better PWR than the calculator was designed to provide. 

 

As far as the first post that I quoted above -

Regarding this statement -> "The weight is just one of the variables used to produce the expected results (ie m50 swapped e30 = 500)"

The truth is that the weight was manipulated in order to keep the E30 M50 swap below 500 points, thus effectively cancelling out the calculator's intended function of limiting PWR!!!

That' just the opposite of the "expected result!!!"

It takes a blind eye and  an attitude that cares more about what one's self is driving than the good of the series to think that there's not a problem with the situation. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, mender said:

Better stated as "if you can't build an E30 or MR2 within the same rules as everyone else, too bad."

Quoted again for emphasis..

Nobody is suggesting to ban any build -  E30 M50, nor MR2. What' being stated is that those cars should have to be built to the same rules the rest of the series play by, instead of having allowances made for them!!!!!

Edited by mcoppola
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally the truth is coming to light!

 

Thanks Mike and Drew for posting today, nailed it.

 

Oops I blew it I told myself to stay off the forum as I was making waves and not being understood well, sorry I'll back away again but thanks.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See, living proof that no matter what we do, people will be unhappy.  

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jer said:

See, living proof that no matter what we do, people will be unhappy.  

Speaking as a customer advocate, which I feel is my job as a TAC member, Yes, members are going to be unhappy when established rules are skirted to allow advantages to certain builds - especially when those builds have the already successful track record that Drew stated above.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Quoted again for emphassi..

Nobody is suggeting to ban any build E30 M5, nor MR2. What' being stated is that those cars should have to be built to the same rules the rest of the series play by, instead of having allowances made for them!!!!!

 

Uh, thats exactly what the intent is.  Starting with laps in what is already a car no faster than the others out there is exactly that.

 

Easy to attack my character over the internet.  Go ahead though, your probably right in the end.

 

This place went from useful and friendly in 2015 to toxic and self-depreciating in 2019.  Oh how far we have come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Looking at last years podiums, please recite what is seen as m50/e30 domination, this year is just starting and I bet there is not going to be a disproportionate number of m50 e30s doing the winning thing.

 

I have no dog in this part of the fight as the last thing this team wants is to be conventional.

 

Also

 

Will someone let me know where there is a race series that essentially, lets the fox advise on hen house security.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me add this:  The M50 swap is popular because M20s are scarce and expensive (thanks largely to spec e30 racing).  I know this, it's exactly why my old team did this swap way back in 2012-3.  The M50 swap isn't dominating races.  They've won a couple of races.  Allowing them to play at 500 points is not ruining the series.  The e30s are extremely popular and plentiful.  For the health of the series, we don't want to discourage them from being able to play with no penalty laps.  Using the swap calculator with proper weights was going to give them laps.  So this is a way to not alienate those teams without hurting the integrity of the calculator moving forward.  And the difference is only 10 or 20 points, not in the hundreds.  

 

The MR2 weight is off and will be corrected.  If put on the common swap table, it will be at or very near the correct points (using the correct weight which I believe is 2657).  

 

Back to the e30, some times the old saying right but dead right needs to be repeated.  Why, as a series, would we want to alienate a growing faction of teams that are not dominating?  As a Board member we have to look at the good of the whole series, not be right but dead right.  And now you can flame me on that.  

Edited by Jer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some questions regarding the necessity of allowing the M50 in the E30 for no laps:

1. How many M20 engines does the typical E30 team go through in a year?

2. How soon will they use up the available supply?

3. Is this a crisis that will affect the number of entries in the next five years? 

4. Is this crisis bad enough that E30 teams would rather take a one lap penalty rather than run an M20, or is it for convenience?

 

Of course, all this discussion of an M50 swapped E30 would be moot if it didn't get the weight "adjustment" last year.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Instead of having to go through a ton of work creating a common swap table and adding even more confusion, why not just change "weight" to "swap weight + modifier". Use the current formula that works pretty well, and adjust the "weight" on slight outliers to get them where the board wants them? You still have the same tools and no added lists. I supposed you'd have to make a note in the VPI table that there was an adjustment to that vehicle's swap weight, but a simple asterisk would do.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, LAMR2 said:

Instead of having to go through a ton of work creating a common swap table and adding even more confusion, why not just change "weight" to "swap weight + modifier". Use the current formula that works pretty well, and adjust the "weight" on slight outliers to get them where the board wants them? You still have the same tools and no added lists. I supposed you'd have to make a note in the VPI table that there was an adjustment to that vehicle's swap weight, but a simple asterisk would do.

There is more than one reason to create a common table.  Also, if we determine a car on the table is an outlier, we can simply change the points.  I think we can get about 75% of the swaps in a table, adding more as we learn and have experience with them.  

 

I thought there was a lot of support for a common swap table, but now it sounds like that's not true?  Or is the minority just being particularly vocal?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Jer said:

Let me add this:  The M50 swap is popular because M20s are scarce and expensive (thanks largely to spec e30 racing).  I know this, it's exactly why my old team did this swap way back in 2012-3.  The M50 swap isn't dominating races.  They've won a couple of races.  Allowing them to play at 500 points is not ruining the series.  The e30s are extremely popular and plentiful.  For the health of the series, we don't want to discourage them from being able to play with no penalty laps.  Using the swap calculator with proper weights was going to give them laps.  So this is a way to not alienate those teams without hurting the integrity of the calculator moving forward.  And the difference is only 10 or 20 points, not in the hundreds.  

 

The MR2 weight is off and will be corrected.  If put on the common swap table, it will be at or very near the correct points (using the correct weight which I believe is 2657).  

 

Back to the e30, some times the old saying right but dead right needs to be repeated.  Why, as a series, would we want to alienate a growing faction of teams that are not dominating?  As a Board member we have to look at the good of the whole series, not be right but dead right.  And now you can flame me on that.  

 

Jer,

 

Maybe broadly speaking here, but if the action taken to not alienate the m50 swap cars was to shift the weights or target pwr (that causes the high order exponent) of ALL cars we wouldn't be in this mess... Same for mr2 (except maybe 1mz, which might still fit under swap calc).

 

In reality the power the swap is over target was small, and it most likely it is pretty close to on point with the new (small inflation) norm of performance. But the actions were still a direct handout to a car that wasn't seen as having issues with success. 

 

I hate this sort of thinking, but was waiting for the #didntpickyour car......If people with small tanks should just build new cars, why shouldn't e30 team pick a new platform if m20 prices are high? 

 

To clarify, i think the swap table is a great idea, and a great chance to get several factors balanced\pulled out of the griping list 

Edited by Black Magic
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LAMR2 said:

Instead of having to go through a ton of work creating a common swap table and adding even more confusion, why not just change "weight" to "swap weight + modifier". Use the current formula that works pretty well, and adjust the "weight" on slight outliers to get them where the board wants them? You still have the same tools and no added lists. I supposed you'd have to make a note in the VPI table that there was an adjustment to that vehicle's swap weight, but a simple asterisk would do.

 

+1 for the common swap table...

 

It would do away with the gaming/selective rules interpration that was being done with the platform swap rule not being used by some teams/people and would help new teams building cars for the series in the future...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jer said:

There is more than one reason to create a common table.  Also, if we determine a car on the table is an outlier, we can simply change the points.  I think we can get about 75% of the swaps in a table, adding more as we learn and have experience with them.  

 

I thought there was a lot of support for a common swap table, but now it sounds like that's not true?  Or is the minority just being particularly vocal?  

Initially I thought it would be reasonable to do so but most of what I'm hearing is that it will be used to sidestep the power to weight limit that the swap formula was designed to control. 

 

My objection is to allowing cars to be exempt from that formula either by changing the internal parameters of the formula or by placing them on a special list that does essentially the same thing. So far, every indication I've seen specifically regarding the E30 is to allow exactly that. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

If the common swap table lists VPI's that the calculator is intended to provide - limiting PWR - then I believe there would be a majority of support for it.

Disapproval will come if the table gives advantages that the calculator function was intended to limit.

It will be close.  

 

8 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Jer,

 

Maybe broadly speaking here, but if the action taken to not alienate the m50 swap cars was to shift the weights or target pwr (that causes the high order exponent) of ALL cars we wouldn't be in this mess... Same for mr2 (except maybe 1mz, which might still fit under swap calc).

 

In reality the power the swap is over target was small, and it most likely it is pretty close to on point with the new (small inflation) norm of performance. But the actions were still a direct handout to a car that wasn't seen as having issues with success. 

 

I hate this sort of thinking, but was waiting for the #didntpickyour car......If people with small tanks should just build new cars, why shouldn't e30 team pick a new platform if m20 prices are high? 

I understand what you are saying, but we also are trying to take care of the health of the organization.  There are a lot of e30 teams who have/might run an M50.  When Condron ran off all the e36s back in the day, it nearly put the series out of business and helped spawn other series.  As a Board we need to look at the loss of teams from an action vs. the loss of teams from a different action.  Raise your hand if you think valuing the e30M50 at 510 points vs. 500 points will significantly damage everyone else's chance to compete.  Because at the end of the day, that is what we are all fighting over.  I think I need to leave this conversation because we are going around in circles.  

Edited by Jer
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Also the chassis with the most races in champcar history.  

 

Causation =/= correlation

statistics are in the eye of the beer-holder

 

and all that jazz

 

The above posts are basically (ban the m50 e30) and (ban the v6mr2) with different words

 

 

The issue with the swap calculator, the posts are saying ban 189 hp engines from e30, don't care if it is an m50 or some sort of small block chevy.....

 

Or give the rest of us the same cookies and just equalize the power swaps for all cars to that level.

 

It would be a gift to only have to worry about the potential of the value for one motor swap combo into e30. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

The issue with the swap calculator, the posts are saying ban 189 hp engines from e30, don't care if it is an m50 or some sort of small block chevy.....

 

Or give the rest of us the same cookies and just equalize the power swaps for all cars to that level.

 

It would be a gift to only have to worry about the potential of the value for one motor swap combo into e30. 

So much easier to keep the bar where it is than to raise it again. Speed creep = cost jump.

 

More questions for the good of the series:

1. How many teams will be affected by requiring an M50 E30 or V6 MR2 or whatever to abide by the same rules as everyone else?

2. How may teams will be affected by allowing an M50 E30 or V6 MR2 or whatever to sidestep the rules?

 

It has to be a decision for the good of the present majority (1000 teams?) rather than for a vocal and apparently influential minority (10 teams? 5 teams?). 

Edited by mender
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Jer said:

It will be close.  

 

I understand what you are saying, but we also are trying to take care of the health of the organization.  There are a lot of e30 teams who have/might run an M50.  When Condron ran off all the e36s back in the day, it nearly put the series out of business and helped spawn other series.  As a Board we need to look at the loss of teams from an action vs. the loss of teams from a different action.  Rasie your hand if you think valuing the e30M50 at 510 points vs. 500 points will significantly damage everyone else's chance to compete.  Because at the end of the day, that is what we are all fighting over.  I think I need to leave this conversation because we are going around in circles.  

 

No m50 e30 would ever need to be over 500 points if you just did the things i listed and raise the bar for everyone....

 

I think the issue would be the e30 guys would complain about the speed creep of allowing the same pwr they follow to be universal. 

 

The option is always there to make any car we "need to keep" in as 500 point car, just make the same rules for all of us. 

 

Or just make a spec e30 e36 class, and a rest of us class.

 

How many car types did we run off with our fuel rules? How many with our power creep? Looking at citrus series pic and vids i see several car i recognize. Some of this is just part of "growing up" as a series, but we need to keep an eye out.

Edited by Black Magic
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Jer said:

There are a lot of e30 teams who have/might run an M50. 

I think there are just as many Fiero teams that would run a bigger fuel tank if allowed as there are E30 teams that ran an M50 last year when it was allowed. :P

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any method chosen to do this will be the same mess if special deals are handed out. 

 

When the 189hp swap in e30 got a penalty lop before the mysterious adjustment did they all leave?  Or did they win with less power?   

 

What was it spock said... good of many over good of few.  Something like that   

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No special deals.  

 

If existing cars are not out of the realm of performance for champcar, change the base vpi.

 

Stop messing with weights.

 

Weights is fooling the swap calculator. 

 

Vpi is the proper tool to use.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×