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57 minutes ago, Jer said:

Let me add this:  The M50 swap is popular because M20s are scarce and expensive (thanks largely to spec e30 racing).  I know this, it's exactly why my old team did this swap way back in 2012-3.  The M50 swap isn't dominating races.  They've won a couple of races.  Allowing them to play at 500 points is not ruining the series.  The e30s are extremely popular and plentiful.  For the health of the series, we don't want to discourage them from being able to play with no penalty laps.  Using the swap calculator with proper weights was going to give them laps.  So this is a way to not alienate those teams without hurting the integrity of the calculator moving forward.  And the difference is only 10 or 20 points, not in the hundreds.  

 

The MR2 weight is off and will be corrected.  If put on the common swap table, it will be at or very near the correct points (using the correct weight which I believe is 2657).  

 

Back to the e30, some times the old saying right but dead right needs to be repeated.  Why, as a series, would we want to alienate a growing faction of teams that are not dominating?  As a Board member we have to look at the good of the whole series, not be right but dead right.  And now you can flame me on that.  

Naw, just make the adjustment by pulling the correct lever.

 

Vpi change versus weight...  don't efff with the weight.

 

Also, it sounds like you are saying that champcar can't enforce the rules because it will make some people upset...  so instead, champcar created a loophole.

 

That is painful to imagine....

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2 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

The bar is already higher then the actuality of whatever the PWR is for a swapped e30

And that's why pushing it even higher for special swaps is a bad idea. 

 

There's already a "special" class for cars that have too many penalty laps or aren't within the rules: EC. Either accept the penalty laps that you are assigned by the rules for building the car your way or race in the EC class. Stop trying to change the rules to gain advantage.

 

 

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Later on i will start a thread for this, but if the point per lap over 500 were anywhere reasonable no one would be "pushed out" by being a few point over. I think that is central to getting the speed creep vs alienation of car down.  

 

We hand out these cookies and move the "gold standard" car because someone can end up multiple laps down because their car needs an oil cooler. This makes any car over 500 points seem cursed and thus we move the wall to keep them in. 

 

We would need to also fix vpi of fast cars that we list at 510 to 520 etc to real numbers. 

 

The only reason we need speed creep, and the only reason laps need to be a execution decree is because the penalty math is broken. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

What was it spock said... good of many over good of few.  Something like that   

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ... or the one.

 

I almost posted the clip of that a few days ago. :)

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44 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

Later on i will start a thread for this, but if the point per lap over 500 were anywhere reasonable no one would be "pushed out" by being a few point over. I think that is central to getting the speed creep vs alienation of car down.  

 

We hand out these cookies and move the "gold standard" car because someone can end up multiple laps down because their car needs an oil cooler. This makes any car over 500 points seem cursed and thus we move the wall to keep them in. 

 

We would need to also fix vpi of fast cars that we list at 510 to 520 etc to real numbers. 

 

The only reason we need speed creep, and the only reason laps need to be a execution decree is because the penalty math is broken. 

 

 

A lap or two isn't the death sentence that people have made it out to be. Funny how readily they say that an extra pit stop (essentially a three lap penalty) is normal and easy to overcome yet freak out at the idea of getting a single penalty lap. 

 

The "close" finishes are a result of driver pacing, not because of car limitations. It should be the team's decision whether they value a change high enough to take a penalty lap.

 

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2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

No special deals.  

 

If existing cars are not out of the realm of performance for champcar, change the base vpi.

 

Stop messing with weights.

 

Weights is fooling the swap calculator. 

 

Vpi is the proper tool to use.

A VPI change will affect the stock e30 too.  Do we think the stock e30 is to high on points?   

 

And you can make an argument with each VPI adjustment that you are making a special deal.  I prefer to think of common swaps as another version of a car in the VPI table.  

Edited by Jer

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1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

Later on i will start a thread for this, but if the point per lap over 500 were anywhere reasonable no one would be "pushed out" by being a few point over. I think that is central to getting the speed creep vs alienation of car down.  

 

~snip~

 

The only reason we need speed creep, and the only reason laps need to be a execution decree is because the penalty math is broken. 

So you're saying the M50e30, which ran many years with no laps, then a year with a lap, then another year with no laps is going to cause speed creep?  Wouldn't that have happened a long time ago???  Speed creep is a hollow argument in this example.  I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I think it would make more sense if it was focused on the MR2 haha  

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

A VPI change will affect the stock e30 too.  Do we think the stock e30 is to high on points?   

 

And you can make an argument with each VPI adjustment that you are making a special deal.  I prefer to think of common stocks as another version of a car in the VPI table.  

of course the VPI is too high on the e30- haven't you been reading all these posts?  I think it's very clear...

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Why do I keep posting?  I need to take a cue from the rest of the Board and slowly step away...

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17 minutes ago, chip said:

of course the VPI is too high on the e30- haven't you been reading all these posts?  I think it's very clear...

Um, no: the weight of the E30 on the swap weight list is too high.

 

I thought someone who had been reading all these posts would see that clearly. Not sure how to make that clearer.

Edited by mender

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1 minute ago, mender said:

Um, no: the weight of the E30 on the swap weight list is too high.

 

I thought someone who had been reading all these posts would see that clearly. Not sure how to make that clearer.

No Mender, he is replying to Rob who is saying the fix, if we want the M50e30 to be 500 points, is to lower the VPI of the e30, fix the weight and not create a common swap table.  

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1 hour ago, mender said:

A lap or two isn't the death sentence that people have made it out to be. Funny how readily they say that an extra pit stop (essentially a three lap penalty) is normal and easy to overcome yet freak out at the idea of getting a single penalty lap. 

 

The "close" finishes are a result of driver pacing, not because of car limitations. It should be the team's decision whether they value a change high enough to take a penalty lap.

 

Like a said earlier, your strategy may not match another team that can not run your ultimate pace, for us, each driver runs with most all of it hanging out every lap ( I suspect many SE teams do the same)

 

A lap or 2 on a car being driven flat out the whole time with modest but podium potential lap times is a different handicap vs a fuel short pony car that is forced to woah until there are a few cautions or odd hour races where they can really go express.

 

My point, not all cars are the same, not all cars go the same with similar PWR, there needs to be some wiggle room to tweak this without giving or taking away too much from those already vested, the series health is more important.  As of right now, the only place ChampCar is not excelling is the west, the rest is doing fine, the SE is constantly selling out, hardly a sign staff is failing in some serious manor.

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5 minutes ago, Jer said:

No Mender, he is replying to Rob who is saying the fix, if we want the M50e30 to be 500 points, is to lower the VPI of the e30, fix the weight and not create a common swap table.  

My reply was that the problem arose in the first place because of inaccurate weights. We wouldn't be having this conversation were it not for the "heaviest model" swap weight criterion.

 

Sorting though all the excess verbiage, I agree with your plan to fix the weight list. A "common swap" table based on the fixed swap weight list should then be much less subjective and fair, but my concern is that the final values will be decided before that time and once again, things tweaked to get the "desired" result.

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Just now, mender said:

My reply was that the problem arose in the first place because of inaccurate weights. We wouldn't be having this conversation were it not for the "heaviest model" swap weight criterion.

 

Sorting though all the excess verbiage, I agree with your plan to fix the weight list. A "common swap" table based on the fixed swap weight list should then be much less subjective and fair, but my concern is that the final values will be decided before that time and once again, things tweaked to get the "desired" result.

Ok but aren't ALL the VPI values tweaked to get the desired affect, every year?  That is my point.  Yet we have six pages debating if and how the common M50e30 swap should get 10 more points.  

Edited by Jer
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So if we don’t go with a common swap table how do the 944 S2 swap cars get their 3 laps back?  Should the board go back and adjust the 944S down 25-50 points?  As for P/W calculator we only take 75 points for the swap but incur a 100 point penalty for car generation.  And according to the weight table posted here we have been underweighted by 60lbs!  I just don’t want to give the 240 6 laps in Atlanta when they were already 8s faster then us last year. 

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Just now, Ronh911 said:

So if we don’t go with a common swap table how do the 944 S2 swap cars get their 3 laps back?  Should the board go back and adjust the 944S down 25-50 points?  As for P/W calculator we only take 75 points for the swap but incur a 100 point penalty for car generation.  And according to the weight table posted here we have been underweighted by 60lbs!  I just don’t want to give the 240 6 laps in Atlanta when they were already 8s faster then us last year. 

The table will be compiled and its possible there will be a change for your car, way to early to know.  That's kinda the point.  If the swap calculator spits out a value that is not right, we can then tweak the number as needed just like the rest of the VPI table.  

 

Please submit here your weight in the calculator and the weight via the authorized source-automobile-catalog.  If it's not in there, then go to Edmunds, the secondary source.  

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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

quick, over under on the amount of time before someone tells Ron he doesn't work hard enough.           

 

 

 

 

😳

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4 minutes ago, Jer said:

Ok but aren't ALL the VPI values tweaked to get the desired affect, every year?  That is my point.  Yet we have six pages debating if and how the common M50e30 swap should get 10 more points.  

That was my point in the email that I sent last May but it was ignored. 

 

How common is the M50 swap? I thought Huggy was the only one to take advantage of the "adjustment" last year.

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4 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

quick, over under on the amount of time before someone tells Ron he doesn't work hard enough.           

 

 

 

I have quite a backlog of "we didn't pick your car" comments to use up ... ;)

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13 minutes ago, Jer said:

The table will be compiled and its possible there will be a change for your car, way to early to know.  That's kinda the point.  If the swap calculator spits out a value that is not right, we can then tweak the number as needed just like the rest of the VPI table.  

 

Please submit here your weight in the calculator and the weight via the authorized source-automobile-catalog.  If it's not in there, then go to Edmunds, the secondary source.  

 

Jer, I appreciate what you are doing for the club but I’m getting very frustrated with it.  I have submitted NUMEROUS 944 VPI recommendations, factory weight tables and itemized performance differences to Champ car officials, at their request (more then 1 person) over the last year.  And three weeks before the start of the season the board decides to change/adjust/modify/correct its valuation.  Instead of bringing 2 cars to Atlanta I’m now only bringing 1 because I needed to swap out the engine and rearrange the car for the new VPI.  I also just lost a driver to AER because he doesn’t feel our car will be competitive any longer. 🙈

Edited by Ronh911

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3 minutes ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

Kind of glad I don’t have a swap car anymore, sheesh. Lol

Kinda sad I have one now where I didn't before.  :(

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Just now, Ronh911 said:

 

Jer, I appreciate what you are doing for the club but I’m getting very frustrated with it.  I have submitted NUMEROUS 944 VPI recommendations, factory weight tables and itemized performance differences to Champ car officials, at their request (more then 1 person) over the last year.  And three weeks before the start of the season the board decides to change/adjust/modify/correct its valuation.  Instead of bringing 2 cars to Atlanta I’m now only bringing 1 because I needed to swap out and engine and rearrange the car for the new VPI.  I also just lost a driver to AER because he doesn’t feel our car will be competitive any longer. 🙈

yep.  We need to get better at this.  A consistent application of rules (all swapped 1.6 Miatas got dinged too) and a lack of Mike handing out answers without discussing the questions with the board and TAC) would cure a lot of this.  I don't know if it was you or someone else who talked Mike into treating the 944 different from the Miata, E30s, etc, but someone did.  We need to be more consistent and get back to changing things only once per year.  I'm sorry it happened the way it did. 

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Excellent, Champcar just changed the swap numbers again on the 944, 12 days before the race.  Of course I’ve already swapped my 3L to the 2.5 because of the change 9 days ago!!!!!!!   And, they didn’t tell anyone just like the first time, I had to hear about it from another member who was checking on it!

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