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Swap Calculator is Live!

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1 hour ago, mhr650 said:

As for plumbing and wiring, in ChampCar 2019 there is no reason to have a single inch of Porsche plumbing or wiring in the car. If I were building one it sure wouldn’t.

 

Plumbing and wiring is free?

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51 minutes ago, mender said:

In that light, if that's what Jer was meaning then I apologize. I have seen that phrase used many times by others in an attempt to imply that what I'm saying isn't pertinent.

 

Yet if I were to follow the advice of someone who was at the very latest race weekend , i.e. "the task is simple, read the rules as presented and get to building" I think I would have the same perspective if I found out that Champcar is not applying their rules equally to all cars.

 

It's Champcar's perogative to change the rules each year as they see fit to get the result that they want, but it shouldn't take a lawyer with internal connections to find out how those rules are being applied that year. When the rules get published, everyone including Champcar needs to go by the rules.

I appreciate your dedication and enthusiasm for the series.  I was asking because you post a lot, I had hoped you raced with us and had some first hand knowledge.  Being in the PNW, I understand your plight a little better too in NOT being able to do that.  Maybe someday we can get back up there. 

 

I also agree 100% with your last statement.  I think creating a swapped VPI table will help.  Otherwise, you are correct, different rules for different cars.  it looks bad and I see it that way too.  We'd be better off just giving values on common swaps vs. be backroom massages to selected cars via weight manipulation.  sigh.  We will get better.  

Edited by Jer
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To me having common swaps on the VPI list while keeping the swap calculator live and in the rules is a terrible idea, and will create much more confusion and anger than it will help. As long as someone can run the  numbers and compare the results from the calculator to the swap VPI list and ask why one car gets an adjustment while another car doesn’t you will have a problem. If you want to do the swap VPI table you need to go all in and try to forget that the calculator ever existed.

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9 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

To me having common swaps on the VPI list while keeping the swap calculator live and in the rules is a terrible idea, and will create much more confusion and anger than it will help. As long as someone can run the  numbers and compare the results from the calculator to the swap VPI list and ask why one car gets an adjustment while another car doesn’t you will have a problem. If you want to do the swap VPI table you need to go all in and try to forget that the calculator ever existed.

And that is certainly a possibility.  We could add swaps as they come up to the swapped VPI table.  I like that idea.  

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15 minutes ago, mhr650 said:

To me having common swaps on the VPI list while keeping the swap calculator live and in the rules is a terrible idea, and will create much more confusion and anger than it will help. As long as someone can run the  numbers and compare the results from the calculator to the swap VPI list and ask why one car gets an adjustment while another car doesn’t you will have a problem. If you want to do the swap VPI table you need to go all in and try to forget that the calculator ever existed.

I disagree, the swap calculator works well for most cars.  The problem arises when you have an outlier "performance" car which then skews the swap numbers (I.E. S2, M3, Cobra).  Champcar needs some way to be able to allow lower versions of a model line to do a swap and not incur the outlier points.  

Edited by Ronh911
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1 hour ago, karman1970 said:

 

Plumbing and wiring is free?

 

These are "free" from a points perspective, but the dollar value of plumbing and wiring must be included towards the $1500 limit when you are performing an engine swap.  The swap sheet has a table where you are expected to list out all these parts and their costs.

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19 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

I disagree, the swap calculator works well for most cars.  The problem arises when you have an outlier "performance" car which then skews the swap numbers (I.E. S2, M3, Cobra).  Champcar needs some way to be able to allow lower versions of a model line to do a swap and not incur the outlier points.  

 

 

Hey Ron, I have nothing against you or your team, but can you explain how your justifying the S2 engine swap when the rules state $1,500 or less and the two S2 engines on ebay are at almost $5K?

 

Brian

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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2 hours ago, mender said:

In that light, if that's what Jer was meaning then I apologize. I have seen that phrase used many times by others in an attempt to imply that what I'm saying isn't pertinent.

 

Yet if I were to follow the advice of someone who was at the very latest race weekend , i.e. "the task is simple, read the rules as presented and get to building" I think I would have the same perspective if I found out that Champcar is not applying their rules equally to all cars.

 

It's Champcar's perogative to change the rules each year as they see fit to get the result that they want, but it shouldn't take a lawyer with internal connections to find out how those rules are being applied that year. When the rules get published, everyone including Champcar needs to go by the rules.

I back the other comment bolstering Jers opinion, come and see that things literally "on the ground" are pretty far divorced from the forum reality, are there issues? Yup, are all "on the ground" racers entirely content about the rules? Nope but they simply grumble a bit then work another angle, when that angle gets addressed there will be another and another angle that will need discussed, this will never end. As a engine builder you know, at some point, one has to decide how they can find their own special angle of advantage. This has been the way since racing was invented.

 

About unequal treatment and backdoor deals, in reality, everyone has the same opportunity, as a long term competitor I have dug deep looking and have seen nothing that would support such a claim, did I like everything found? Not even close!  Sure there are some behind the scenes tweaking going on, but it is based on what we racers have both presented in facts AND presented in person to campaign, if one combo does not match the desired results, it is either boosted or culled slightly to get the desired result, this also been happening since the beginning of racing.

 

One does not need a connected lawyer to see the light, but I agree, one does need to know the rules AND understand their implementation, that takes being involved in any and all levels possible.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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1 hour ago, Racer7x said:

 

 

Hey Ron, I have nothing against you or your team, but can you explain how your justifying the S2 engine swap when the rules state $1,500 or less and the two S2 engines on ebay are at almost $5K?

 

Brian

 

 

I know where there is an s2 posted on Craigslist for 300 with a running engine....

 

On top of that, this is a platform swap.  No 1500 limit.

Edited by wvumtnbkr

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13 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I know where there is an s2 posted on Craigslist for 300 with a running engine....

 

On top of that, this is a platform swap.  No 1500 limit.

WHERE!! 🤞

Edited by Ronh911
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Lemme see if I can find it again.  I saw it and was like....  huh, pretty sure that's an s2.  

 

The ad didn't say it was an s2, but it looked like a 951 to me, but definitely not a turbo.

 

I'll pm you.

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2 hours ago, Racer7x said:

 

 

Hey Ron, I have nothing against you or your team, but can you explain how your justifying the S2 engine swap when the rules state $1,500 or less and the two S2 engines on ebay are at almost $5K?

 

Brian

 

 

First off, Brian it’s nice to finally get your name!  When CC first went to the 3L I had the same feelings you did about the $1500 rule.  This is the reason we ran the S for 2017 and the beginning of 2018.  I finally found a complete car in Craigslist for $3000, bought it, removed engine and transmission and sold the rest for $1500.  About a month later a tech at one of the Porsche dealers I work with called me and said he had an S2 he bought for $1000.  I bought it from him for $2000.   I could now in good conscience use the engine and be within the $1500 limit. It took me a year and a half to find them, so they are out there but definitely not easy to find. 

Edited by Ronh911
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51 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I know where there is an s2 posted on Craigslist for 300 with a running engine....

 

On top of that, this is a platform swap.  No 1500 limit.

And 520 points for a 944S2 as per the present rules. 

 

No need for special rules or handshakes.

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I know where there is an s2 posted on Craigslist for 300 with a running engine....

 

On top of that, this is a platform swap.  No 1500 limit.

 

yeah cause they don't let just anyone post an ad on craigslist...  Hey look i found a $1000 running Viper, can i run that engine now?

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26 minutes ago, mender said:

And 520 points for a 944S2 as per the present rules. 

 

No need for special rules or handshakes.

 

why would you do that when you can claim it as a 944 with an S2 swap for less points?

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   Wise words Sir.

 

 

    But still give the teams credit that have a go at the S2. We spend so much time on the political end trying to squash teams for no other reason than “I don’t like it and I think it is unfair”.  This is still an amateur series. Let us enjoy this. We can be competitive and still have fun. I have been on the receiving end of knee jerk reactions and infantile hate.  Let us not repeat this mistake.

 

Untill the S2 is laying waste to the field let them run. But.......keep your fire extinguishers lock and loaded. 

 

 

   Our Mustang wiring was a birds nest that had tried to eat a tactical nuke. We removed ALL of it and started over. You can buy an entire replacement engine wire harness for a Mustang at a reasonable amount of money. And we have replaced our plumbing for safety reasons and common sense. I would not want to think about a wiring harness for any Stuttgart mark let alone pay for it. 

  Just the safety aspect is needed to make this unit race worthy is certifiable. But if that is what a team wants to do have a go. 

 

  I have been on the receiving end of these witch hunts. If this Mark is laying waste to the field well yes then make a move. Understood. But to just jump up and down because it is a Porsche? It’s a heep.  Do not hate the badge. Appreciate the talented individuals who tackled this heep and make it work. Just like the Alfa that is run. I salute them. 

 

  I am not a fan of some of the moves the series have made. But this is not one of them. I do have an issue with hitting a car with points BEFORE IT EVER HITS THE TRACK! I hope we don’t make this mistake again. At least let a team prove a certain mark is dominant before it is hit. And this Porsche is not one of them.

 

Hell a broken swing hand clock is correct twice a day. 

 

 

5 hours ago, mhr650 said:

 

Cone Crushers has won a lot of races, although they are not invincible, we were faster last time we raced against them.

 

As for plumbing and wiring, in ChampCar 2019 there is no reason to have a single inch of Porsche plumbing or wiring in the car. If I were building one it sure wouldn’t.

 

Edited by Cam Benty
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3 hours ago, Jer said:

You've made your point repeatedly.  I think people are more interested in making sure outliers aren't running away with the series.  I mean we massage the stock cars using a VPI table.  We will likely do the same thing with common swaps starting next year, eliminating the perceived notion that all things need to be treated the same.  They aren't today, the VPI table is chock full of different values than you would expect if you just use objective factors like HP and weight.  

 

Out of curiosity, is 2016 really the last time you ran with us?  

 

3 hours ago, Burningham said:

 

I can’t and won’t speak for Jerry, but I would say the point would be if you would come out to a race and see what is going on you might have a different perspective on all of this. 

 

OK, well if it makes a difference coming from a current customer then I will rephrase the comments from @mender.

 

Current customer details: been racing with ChumpCar/ChampCar since 2011, four races per year since then.  Raced west, central, east, south.  Also not a fan of double standards.  Not sure what is meant by the comment that I would see a different perspective by attending a race.  Will only be attending two races this year because the TBird triple dip decision was delayed by ~1.5 months (increase of 100 points) so we laid down our tools for the corresponding time - Docspeed and ourselves travel together, there would have been two more entries at Sonoma. 

 

2017 was to be a triple dip in points for the Fox Mustang - increase of 50 points planned, many other cars decrease (even some podium cars), numerous speed parts points lowered or became free.  By lowering the points of speed parts the advantage of a low VPI was disappearing.  The result was a previous normal podium contender was to become a podium car only in low attendance races despite the 50 point increase being cancelled.

2019 was only a double dip for the Fox Mustang, triple dip for the TBird.  The Fox Mustang was not increased but the VPI of many other cars were decreased (again even some podium models), more speed parts points were lowered further eroding the advantage of a low VPI car.  The podium record of the Fox Mustang leading into 2019, not good.  The podium record of the TBird leading into 2019, non-existent since 2013?  The TBird was triple dipped with a 50 point increase, many other cars decreased (podium cars included), and of course speed parts are lowered eroding the advantage of low VPI cars again.

 

I keep seeing the comments that:

MR2 is not raised despite podiums and well the fast lap was only because of the fast driver.  TBird has not podiumed.  Both cars at 200 points.  TBird raised by 50 points - stinks of a double standard like nothing else.

Some podium cars were lowered because apparently they needed a bit of help while the non-podium TBird gets raised by 50 points.  It is said this is because of the perceived threat that the TBird will dominate despite the results since 2017 major adjustment and prior.

Other cars are adjusted down because they have not seen the podium or perceived to need help.  The TBird has not seen the podium either but it sees a 50 point increase.  It is said other cars are decreased to help their competitiveness and per their results.  TBird results need not apply.

 

But wait the TBird was going to podium at Sebring until it broke, well yeah that was before 50 points needs to get removed from the car for the coming year.

 

I can understand the decision to support the larger volume of customers by doing things like raising the weight of the BMW to allow another engine choice or common swap but this about racing, don't they also want to race other contenders instead of just other BMW's?  My conclusion, American Iron on the podium is not looked upon as favoured, double standard, whatever the reason.

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11 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

   Wise words Sir.

 

 

    But still give the teams credit that have a go at the S2. We spend so much time on the political end trying to squash teams for no other reason than “I don’t like it and I think it is unfair”.  This is still an amateur series. Let us enjoy this. We can be competitive and still have fun. I have been on the receiving end of knee jerk reactions and infantile hate.  Let us not repeat this mistake.

 

Untill the S2 is laying waste to the field let them run. But.......keep your fire extinguishers lock and loaded. 

 

 

   Our Mustang wiring was a birds nest that had tried to eat a tactical nuke. We removed ALL of it and started over. You can buy an entire replacement engine wire harness for a Mustang at a reasonable amount of money. And we have replaced our plumbing for safety reasons and common sense. I would not want to think about a wiring harness for any Stuttgart mark let alone pay for it. 

  Just the safety aspect is needed to make this unit race worthy is certifiable. But if that is what a team wants to do have a go. 

 

  I have been on the receiving end of these witch hunts. If this Mark is laying waste to the field well yes then make a move. Understood. But to just jump up and down because it is a Porsche? It’s a heep.  Do not hate the badge. Appreciate the talented individuals who tackled this heep and make it work. Just like the Alfa that is run. I salute them. 

 

  I am not a fan of some of the moves the series have made. But this is not one of them. I do have an issue with hitting a car with points BEFORE IT EVER HITS THE TRACK! I hope we don’t make this mistake again. At least let a team prove a certain mark is dominant before it is hit. And this Porsche is not one of them.

 

Hell a broken swing hand clock is correct twice a day. 

Cam, I don't think that anyone cares whether it's Porsche or a Toyota or a BMW or a Ford, the issue is that the rules and rule changes should be applied consistently regardless of brand, badge, popularity or podiums.

 

Your complaint is that the T-Bird got whacked because of the "discovery" that it had a reasonable amount of fuel. Shouldn't every car that gets pointed out as having a reasonable amount of fuel now get that same 50-100 point jump in VPi regardless of its podium history?

 

You need to be consistent as well: either you're for equal treatment on all the rules and changes or accept your T-bird points as part of Champcar's SOP. Don't be criticizing people for speaking up about one aspect of the same problem that you're complaining about.

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22 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

My conclusion, American Iron on the podium is not looked upon as favoured

Never heard a word of this, on the contrary, there are high fives whenever it does happen.

 

See: SN95 on most recent podium.

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7 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 

See: SN95 on most recent three podiums.

 

FTFY

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3 hours ago, Jer said:

I appreciate your dedication and enthusiasm for the series.  I was asking because you post a lot, I had hoped you raced with us and had some first hand knowledge.  Being in the PNW, I understand your plight a little better too in NOT being able to do that.  Maybe someday we can get back up there. 

 

I also agree 100% with your last statement.  I think creating a swapped VPI table will help.  Otherwise, you are correct, different rules for different cars.  it looks bad and I see it that way too.  We'd be better off just giving values on common swaps vs. be backroom massages to selected cars via weight manipulation.  sigh.  We will get better.  

I used to be of the opinion that a separate swap table would help but I no longer have the confidence that it will fare any better than the VPi table and swap calculator has.

 

I'm frustrated with the continuance of the "show up at the track and play dumb, you'll get a much better idea of what you can get away with" mentality that the early days of Chump ensconced. Why am I so vehement about all this? Because I was never good at being part of the good ol' boys club just so I could cheat and not get called out.

 

I want to race people on the track and beat them straight up by being better, not by getting concessions from the tech guy because he's a buddy or any other reason. I don't like losing because I was on the wrong side of that either. 

 

Again, Jer, my apologies for taking your meaning the wrong way. Thanks for your equanimity on that.

Edited by mender
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13 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Never heard a word of this, on the contrary, there are high fives whenever it does happen.

 

See: SN95 on most recent podium.

 

5 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

FTFY

 

people need to start giving high fives for the 626 in impound, thats more impressive.

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