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Bill Strong

2019 Official Road America Spring Double 8-Hour Enduros

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Previously, I had understood EC to be a “try before you buy” that let people experience our series before modifying their cars to meet the rules.  It has evolved some, because there seems to be some “regulars” that don’t seem bothered by being in their own class. It has also begun to serve as the place to put cars that have rules infraction issues.  

 

This latest deal is something different though.  The car in question isn’t ever going to be a champ car.  If the team was wanting to try our series, they would do much better to rent seats like @Round3Racing did at VIR.  Just sharing the track with us doesn’t give them the Champ experience at all, when their car is so superior.  So what it ends up being is a test session for a team happening in the middle of a race.  They aren’t trying our product - they are just finding a good deal on track time. 

Personally, if they are just doing a test day I don’t think they should even be in the scoring system.  But I guess we get a few bucks for the transponder rental and we want to know the lap times.  

 

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3 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

It’d be easiest in the long run to only allow cars built to our rules   If they aren’t they aren’t.  Makes it simple.   IMO 

So you would eliminate all EC class cars?  

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

So you would eliminate all EC class cars?  

No I don't think so.   However, in watching this thread and trying to understand some different perspectives, I did have a thought that the EC cars should have a limit and it should probably be in the rule book to make it consistent.    The thought I had,  either the other morning over coffee or one evening over a cold one, was that EC cars should be limited to something like 750 points.   I have not fleshed out the idea enough to know if that's a good number, maybe its 800 maybe 1000, but I think there should be a limit.   

 

There are teams that are building EC cars on purpose, I don't know what the points would be on them.   At quite a few races there are enough for a trophy.  So if the super GTwhatever cars are allowed and it becomes a popular place for them to come and get tons of experience at a track it sort of screws up what the team did when they said lets run x with Y swap even though it is 625 points it'll be fun in EC.   

 

If the overall mission of this series is still to be grassroots endurance racing, it is no place for pro built !/4 million dollar cars.  That my opinion, and we all know what that's worth  ;)

 

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4 hours ago, Racer28173 said:

I assume the theory is that it benefits all of us because it covers a little more of the costs of the race.  The entry list doesn’t list classes so it is impossible to tell how many of the cars that have already paid are running in EC.  Those guys clearly get screwed if a 150+ mph car shows up because they will have laughable performance in comparison and will just be racing for 2nd place. If a few of those guys don’t come back because they feel like they brought a knife to a gunfight, then no one wins because we will have less cars at the next race. 

 

 

If you check the Utah results you will see that the GT3 is not even listed.  They were on slicks so not even EC, if I said before they were EC was my mistake.

 

The only time I knew they were on track was a white flash in the mirror, I would give a wave then they were gone.  Having them there was a non-event.

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Still looking for a team to split a garage with.

 

[edit] no longer looking.

Edited by enginerd

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So does Riley Motorsports get to run there IMSA car at Daytona in EC, since they are known to the series?  Maybe put them on 180TW tires so they won't be that fast??  Sorry, couldn't help myself when I thought of that this evening!

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Let’s talk about the weather...

 

It has not snowed in central Wisconsin for at least 24 hours. 

 

So we have that going for us. Which is nice. 

 

Gunga Galunga

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We're looking forward to the return of The Landjaeger Cup at Road America. Below is the important event info you need to read to make your weekend a little easier. Please read carefully!
 
  
Supplemental Rules & Schedule - Please make sure you read the supplemental rules and event schedule found here.  Reminder: this is a Friday and Saturday race.
 
Gates Everyone must sign both the ChampCar waiver and the Road America waiver before they can enter the paddock. You will then be issued a waiver wristband that you must wear all weekend.  You can sign the waivers at the ticket window at the registration building. If you show up after the ticket window is closed you will not be able to enter the track until the next day. Ticket window hours:   Thursday 11AM - 7PM, Friday 6AM - 4PM & Saturday 6AM - 4PM.
 
Practice Day - Road America will be holding a practice day on Thursday for ChampCar teams only. Please make sure you sign up in advance or the practice day might be canceled due to lack of entries. Click here to sign up. This will also get you in to the paddock early on Wednesday and Thursday.
 
Pit & Paddock Assignments - Team Captains only: Please email me any pit requests (close to pit-in, close to pit-out, close to a team, away from a team, etc...) and we will do our best. Also, let me know if you are renting a garage so we can put you in line with your garage. A few teams will need to double up so if you're sharing resources with another team let me know and I'll put you in the same stall. Paddock spots will be assigned to correlate to your pit stall. Assignments will be sent out a week before the race.
 
Transponders If you entered a transponder number (or entered anything really) while you where registering we assume you're bringing your own.  Please verify that you have entered the correct number or that you reserved a transponder if you're not supplying your own.  
 
Garages Worried about the weather? Garages are available and may be reserved for this event by completing the Garage Rental form. Garage stalls in the Hagerty Tech Center are 16x40 (easily fits two cars) and includes electric. They are $375 for the event.  Completed forms may be emailed to DSzczepanski@RoadAmerica.com or by FAX 920-892-4550. For additional information, please call 1-800-365-7223.
 
Tech - All cars will need to be tech'd for 2019 unless you've had your 2019 annual tech completed.  Bring all your paperwork filled out and make sure you have read the rules.  Swap cars with no paperwork will likely be put in EC.  Tech opens at 1PM on Thursday.  Decals will be handed out at Tech and will be required to pass tech. Decal locations are shown in the BCCR appendix. Please download and READ the 2019 BCCR here as we have had some rule changes. Also make sure you look up your VPI here before you arrive at tech so there are no surprises. If you haven't done so yet, make sure you order your new 2019 number panels here.

Registration - Make sure you tech first, then bring your yellow logbook and tech sheet signed by us directly to registration.  Before you arrive, log in and check your driver roster for accuracy.  Make any corrections ahead of time.  If you are fully paid with the correct drivers, check-in is a 3 minute process.  If you are not coming (work issue, car issue, etc), email me to let me know you will not be there.
 
Novice & New to ChampCar School - 6PM Thursday at the Medical Center Classroom. See map in supps.
 
   
A reminder: read through and print out the Supplemental Rules for this event here.
 
 
If you have any questions about registration, please contact Laura O'Rourke here.  Any other questions you can contact me here.


We're looking forward to seeing you all at Road America!

 


The ChampCar Staff   

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9 hours ago, Chris Shay said:

Let’s talk about the weather...

 

It has not snowed in central Wisconsin for at least 24 hours. 

 

So we have that going for us. Which is nice. 

 

Gunga Galunga

On the glass is half full side, we can probably skip the cool shirts!

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On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 3:11 PM, Racer28173 said:

Previously, I had understood EC to be a “try before you buy” that let people experience our series before modifying their cars to meet the rules.  It has evolved some, because there seems to be some “regulars” that don’t seem bothered by being in their own class. It has also begun to serve as the place to put cars that have rules infraction issues.   

 

This latest deal is something different though.  The car in question isn’t ever going to be a champ car.  If the team was wanting to try our series, they would do much better to rent seats like @Round3Racing did at VIR.  Just sharing the track with us doesn’t give them the Champ experience at all, when their car is so superior.  So what it ends up being is a test session for a team happening in the middle of a race.  They aren’t trying our product - they are just finding a good deal on track time. 

Personally, if they are just doing a test day I don’t think they should even be in the scoring system.  But I guess we get a few bucks for the transponder rental and we want to know the lap times.  

 

 

Racer is right. Absolutely right.

 

 2.2.  VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY – DEFINITION OF AN EXCEPTION CLASS (“EC”) CAR  2.2.1.  The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any Team not wishing to compete for the overall win.  2.2.2.  ChampCar reserves the right to deny entry to any EC car if ChampCar determines the car to be excessively superior in power, braking, top speed or other factors that ChampCar feels would be unsafe or disruptive to any event.

 

Notice the words "ChampCar compatible".  That thing is not even close. This is just another reason (including the rules lawyering, rules instability, outright cheating, ridiculous speed creep, abandon the grassroots philosophy, and money is no object) why I am gravitating to Midwest Council events.

 

Troll away if you must, but I've just about had enough.

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10 minutes ago, Eman911 said:

 

Racer is right. Absolutely right.

 

 2.2.  VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY – DEFINITION OF AN EXCEPTION CLASS (“EC”) CAR  2.2.1.  The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any Team not wishing to compete for the overall win.  2.2.2.  ChampCar reserves the right to deny entry to any EC car if ChampCar determines the car to be excessively superior in power, braking, top speed or other factors that ChampCar feels would be unsafe or disruptive to any event.

 

Notice the words "ChampCar compatible".  That thing is not even close. This is just another reason (including the rules lawyering, rules instability, outright cheating, ridiculous speed creep, abandon the grassroots philosophy, and money is no object) why I am gravitating to Midwest Council events.

 

Troll away if you must, but I've just about had enough.

To simply play devils advocate, it’s a production car they made more than 1000 of in the US and it weighs under 4200 lbs.  What are the other requirements?  C4 Corvettes can race with us legally in D class.  How about C5s?  C6s?  7s?  To what prep level?  I don’t disagree cars like this probably don’t belong, but where in the rules does it say they CAN’T.  If nothing else, maybe this will stir up enough conversation to have the BOD consider adding a line or two the the rule book (the horror!)

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 No dog in this fight, but historically, Mike has done a fine job of vetting/warning folks not to mess up the show.

 

 More paying customers are better for the series, hopefully I’m not wrong.

 

 

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The point that ScottyK made earlier about this team wanting to get practice in for an upcoming race in their series is what scares me.  How long until other teams figure this out?  Entering a Champcar race weekend for $1500 is a lot cheaper per hour than any other opportunity out there. 

 

We have seen lots of Pro drivers and Pro teams in this series, the only difference is they have run in actual champ cars, not the cars they run in their pro series.  Heck, a couple years back (2012?)  there was a Cup driver in the Miaro that bought a seat because he had never seen Road America before.  That I'm totally cool with, luckily Road America is a big enough track and with only ~50 entries there will be a lot of open track.

 

 

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20 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

The point that ScottyK made earlier about this team wanting to get practice in for an upcoming race in their series is what scares me.  How long until other teams figure this out?  Entering a Champcar race weekend for $1500 is a lot cheaper per hour than any other opportunity out there. 

 

We have seen lots of Pro drivers and Pro teams in this series, the only difference is they have run in actual champ cars, not the cars they run in their pro series.  Heck, a couple years back (2012?)  there was a Cup driver in the Miaro that bought a seat because he had never seen Road America before.  That I'm totally cool with, luckily Road America is a big enough track and with only ~50 entries there will be a lot of open track.

I agree with this 100%. Right now we are building a Champcar to race in the Champcar Series. We even have the CC point sheet printed and laminated and tapped to the car. If they want to race with us, buy a seat or build a car for it. Lots of cars on the list can be gut, caged, and raced as-is and do well. (I'm sure new brake pads should be done too, but you get what I'm saying). IMO cars worth over 10g are starting to get outside of the spirit of Champcar. I'd like to think our new car is very good example of a Champcar. We found a Camaro for 1000 bucks, beat the dents out with a hammer and turned it into a Champcar by getting parts from Rock Auto, Amazon, wheels/tires from Walmart and some brake calipers for 15 bucks at an auction.

 

Our mullet inducing Camaro is more of a Chumpcar then a Champcar :) Heck, I even added black vinyl to the roof so it looks like we have T-Tops! HA!
IMG_20190406_175809.jpg

 

 

Edited by Mike.g
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2 hours ago, Mike.g said:

I agree with this 100%. Right now we are building a Champcar to race in the Champcar Series. We even have the CC point sheet printed and laminated and tapped to the car. If they want to race with us, buy a seat or build a car for it. Lots of cars on the list can be gut, caged, and raced as-is and do well. (I'm sure new brake pads should be done too, but you get what I'm saying). IMO cars worth over 10g are starting to get outside of the spirit of Champcar. I'd like to think our new car is very good example of a Champcar. We found a Camaro for 1000 bucks, beat the dents out with a hammer and turned it into a Champcar by getting parts from Rock Auto, Amazon, wheels/tires from Walmart and some brake calipers for 15 bucks at an auction.

 

Our mullet inducing Camaro is more of a Chumpcar then a Champcar :) Heck, I even added black vinyl to the roof so it looks like we have T-Tops! HA!
IMG_20190406_175809.jpg

 

 

This car is our dream build!  It looks like you guys are doing a great job!

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On 4/6/2019 at 3:58 PM, hotchkis23 said:

Entering a Champcar race weekend for $1500 is a lot cheaper per hour than any other opportunity out there. 

 

Is it?  Anyone can do a full day track day at High Plains Raceway, for example, for $160.  It might be more elsewhere, but it's unlikely it is $1500.  

Edited by Jer

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On 4/6/2019 at 5:58 PM, hotchkis23 said:

The point that ScottyK made earlier about this team wanting to get practice in for an upcoming race in their series is what scares me.  How long until other teams figure this out?  Entering a Champcar race weekend for $1500 is a lot cheaper per hour than any other opportunity out there. 

 

We have seen lots of Pro drivers and Pro teams in this series, the only difference is they have run in actual champ cars, not the cars they run in their pro series.  Heck, a couple years back (2012?)  there was a Cup driver in the Miaro that bought a seat because he had never seen Road America before.  That I'm totally cool with, luckily Road America is a big enough track and with only ~50 entries there will be a lot of open track.

 

 

 

We had this same problem in another club.  Guys from Trans-Am, PWC, and other series were using big events as a test for their primary series.  It totally screwed up the races and took valuable points away from the guys who were racing for the championship in the club.  So, they asked the teams that were testing to be excluded from the final results.  They would still be shown on the scoring sheet, but their position would not be included in the final results, the points, or the podium.  Some guys accepted it and others did not.

 

As an idea for ChampCar, they could simply say that if your car is not listed in the VPI, you will not be included in the scoring.  So, an EC car that is not on the VPI is not scored...not even for the EC class win.  That would be fair.  It would hopefully encourage a team with a car that is not classed in ChampCar from interfering with the race.  So, the Caymans would not be racing for the EC win...not even the Sahlen's Cayman at Sebring or WGI.  Not on the VPI...not scored.

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52 minutes ago, Jer said:

Is it?  Anyone can do a full day track day at High Plains Raceway, for example, for $160.  It might be more elsewhere, but it's unlikely it is $1500.  

$160 is CHEAP!  Road America is $295 for a track day, $1000 for a test and tune(still 30 minute sessions) for a single day.  So yes, in my opinion the cost of the Champcar race would be considered a deal, as you are getting essentially 3 test and tune days for the about 2/3's the cost of renting it out yourself, plus not having to meet the 8 car minimum requirement to even rent the track.  Not trying to argue, just showing why I feel that way.

Edited by hotchkis23
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52 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

As an idea for ChampCar, they could simply say that if your car is not listed in the VPI, you will not be included in the scoring.  So, an EC car that is not on the VPI is not scored...not even for the EC class win.  That would be fair.  It would hopefully encourage a team with a car that is not classed in ChampCar from interfering with the race.  So, the Caymans would not be racing for the EC win...not even the Sahlen's Cayman at Sebring or WGI.  Not on the VPI...not scored.

 

EC is designed to allow cars not listed in the VPI table,  that is one of the reasons EC exists. 

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6 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

EC is designed to allow cars not listed in the VPI table,  that is one of the reasons EC exists. 

 

Okay.  Good point.  We're new here and don't have a ton of experience with the cars that show up to the races.  Out of curiosity, what percentage of EC cars are typically cars that are not listed on the VPI and what percentage are cars on the VPI, but with point totals that are too high?  Thinking back to the events that I have attended, the only non-VPI cars that I can remember are an MX-5 Cup car at VIR, a Cayman at Sebring, and a 350Z at Road Atlanta.  A quick scan of Daytona appears to show 125 cars on the VPI, but I did not study it in depth.  There could be some which are performance versions of a car model that are not listed, but it appears that the base car is listed on the VPI for most, if not all, of the entries.

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33 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

 

Okay.  Good point.  We're new here and don't have a ton of experience with the cars that show up to the races.  Out of curiosity, what percentage of EC cars are typically cars that are not listed on the VPI and what percentage are cars on the VPI, but with point totals that are too high?  Thinking back to the events that I have attended, the only non-VPI cars that I can remember are an MX-5 Cup car at VIR, a Cayman at Sebring, and a 350Z at Road Atlanta.  A quick scan of Daytona appears to show 125 cars on the VPI, but I did not study it in depth.  There could be some which are performance versions of a car model that are not listed, but it appears that the base car is listed on the VPI for most, if not all, of the entries.

 

 I would think around 25% if I had to guess.  E36 M3s are pretty common, I see a few a year. 

EC is basically just run what ya brung as long as the car passes the safety specifications of the series and has 180+ TW tires (which was not always a rule). Making any rules or restrictions on EC other than what we currently have is a mistake IMO. 

Edited by red0
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47 minutes ago, epic_garage said:

Ill just leave this here.... At least its the week before this time and should be all clear for next week!

image.png.19fe3c5fb85500f869b2f5445579b064.png

 

 

My Dad was so upset about the race being cancelled last year he went to the track anyway, had a drink at Siebkens and ate dinner at the paddock club. 

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1 hour ago, Round3Racing said:

a 350Z at Road Atlanta

Base automatic,no brembos! Raced in C class.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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