Alex3000 Posted January 18, 2019 Report Share Posted January 18, 2019 So, I thought I would scan the new rules just to see where I'm at after all the changes. I went to the new VPI lookup and was surprised my car is no longer technically listed? My car is a 1984 Mazda rx-7 GSL-SE, which technically has a 13b but the new list only has: rx-7 (12a) 1980-1985: 100pts rx-7 (13b) 1985-1988: 275pts Now, I assume when it says (12a) 80-85 the meaning is "first generation" even though there were two years the first gen came with a 13b (albeit not a great one) and the (13b) 85-88 for 275pts means "second generation s4" Anyone who runs an rx-7 have any clarification on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorahDorah Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Since you have a 13B, you need to claim 275 pts. It's not about the year, but the equipment. I'll drop a note to tech/Chisek. There is overlap in those early years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karman1970 Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Definitely reach out to Tech. I highly doubt they are going to make you take the 2nd Gen value just because of the engine name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorahDorah Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Whoops. I need to stop drinking beer. Yeah that table is pretty messed up. So you have an late FB with an 13B. It's more than 100, but it should be less than 275. I would definitely email Tech. Sorry!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted January 19, 2019 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) Here is what I noted in my vpi list change log. RX7 (13B) 1984 Removed RX7 (13B) First Gen 1985 200 275 Increase 75 I suspect you will be at ~200 points? The new update to the BCCR from yesterday indicates that the VPI list can add new cars quarterly. Not sure how that will work for correcting mistakes, but it adds the potential that this could be fixed relatively quickly. Edited January 19, 2019 by Huggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex3000 Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 Hmm, I will just email tech then since I promised myself I would never be "that guy" and start litigating points values on the forum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 I wouldn't be surprised if they make you start at 275. That is what was suggested by tech last year when we swapped a 13b into an 83 including subframe and steering rack. We decided it was more transparent to use the swap math, and account for each suspension complement to value the car. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Racing Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Alex3000 said: Hmm, I will just email tech then since I promised myself I would never be "that guy" and start litigating points values on the forum. Please share what you find out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex3000 Posted January 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said: I wouldn't be surprised if they make you start at 275. That is what was suggested by tech last year when we swapped a 13b into an 83 including subframe and steering rack. We decided it was more transparent to use the swap math, and account for each suspension complement to value the car. Good luck. Well the thing is it seems the first gen has gone down in points to 100. Not sure what is was before but I feel like it was maybe 200? Regardless if you take a first gen at 100 points and plug it into the swap calculator and "swap in" the gsl-se 13b (100hp to 135hp) you get to 150 pts. This is what I plan to suggest. The GSL-SE 13b (135 hp) is different to the second gen 13b (160hp) in quite a few ways that compromise it. To put it in BMW terms It's like saying the e30 2.5L is the same as a e46 2.5L.... but now I'm doing the thing I said I wouldn't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorahDorah Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 (edited) We can't help it. It's a forum thang. Our front porch estimate fueled by beer wuz 175. Completely subjective. I would make your argument to tech with some kind of data. But 100 to 135 is significant. Bear in mind there was some drama here about an S5 engine into an S4 chassis and not doing the swap correctly. Car had to be returned to an S4. And that was a 15 hp difference but an improved chassis and bits over your car. Like Rob sez, good luck! Edited January 19, 2019 by FlorahDorah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted January 19, 2019 Report Share Posted January 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Alex3000 said: Well the thing is it seems the first gen has gone down in points to 100. Not sure what is was before but I feel like it was maybe 200? Regardless if you take a first gen at 100 points and plug it into the swap calculator and "swap in" the gsl-se 13b (100hp to 135hp) you get to 150 pts. This is what I plan to suggest. The GSL-SE 13b (135 hp) is different to the second gen 13b (160hp) in quite a few ways that compromise it. To put it in BMW terms It's like saying the e30 2.5L is the same as a e46 2.5L.... but now I'm doing the thing I said I wouldn't! Actually s4 (1986) rx7 is only 140 hp, not 160. So, it is kinda close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 To the original poster..... Can you just claim the 12a car, and swap in a b13 from the 1986 model and get it for 50 points swap fee? If so you are most likely better to "build" the gsl se spec that way (engine is different gsl vs gsl se, anything else like trans, diff, swaybars). Keep in mind adding the gsl se would set that as the swap value for all 1st gen swaps....careful what you wish for.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I think, the Gsl se is the only one of the 1st gen's that had rear disc brakes. So would also need 25 pt diff swap. maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytipover Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Hey Rob, @wvumtnbkr how well would that 60' GM V6 fit in a first Gen car? Asking for a friend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I probably know as much about first gen RX7 values as anyone and it is obvious that value for the 85 13B is just an error in the table. I have run 2 different chassis that both started out as a 12A car and had a 13B engine. I claimed my car as a 12A swapped with the 13B even back in the AIV days, it would have been nearly impossible to find 10 lowball ads for GSL-SE cars back then. In 2014 when the first MPV table came out they had the cars correctly listed with 12A cars at 200 points and 84-85 13B cars at 300. In 2016 when everyone else was getting their values lowered I lobbied to have the first gen values lowered and was successful getting it to 100 points for a 12A car and 200 points for an 84-85 13B, that carried through until 2018. The 2019 value that omits the 84 13B and assigns the second gen value to the 85 13B is clearly just an error. You could certainly argue that 100 points spread between the 12A and GSL-SE cars is too much, since porting is allowed a strong 12A could have as much HP as an engine that had the stock GSL-SE intake and electronics, the only other significant difference was the brakes, and in either case you almost surely would replace the brakes under the 2X rule. When the swap calculator was being developed I was able to find a 1985 GSL-SE brochure and lobby to get the swap weight of 2575 set for the first gen cars. For now the swap calculator still allows you to claim a 12A starting value and with the official swap weight you can use any normally aspirated rotary up to the S5, or a piston engine up to about 160hhp for a 50 point swap. My car with a strong S5 13B and a lot of chassis and suspension work is very fast, capable of winning overall and setting FTD pretty much anywhere ( I also have some very good drivers), it is a shame it has just been sitting in my basement for over a year. I may be selling it since I have been thinking of a new challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindspin311 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Black Magic said: To the original poster..... Can you just claim the 12a car, and swap in a b13 from the 1986 model and get it for 50 points swap fee? If so you are most likely better to "build" the gsl se spec that way (engine is different gsl vs gsl se, anything else like trans, diff, swaybars). Keep in mind adding the gsl se would set that as the swap value for all 1st gen swaps....careful what you wish for.... Why not just used the value that it had? Or add it, because, why would you take the car off the list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 25 minutes ago, JDChristianson said: I think, the Gsl se is the only one of the 1st gen's that had rear disc brakes. So would also need 25 pt diff swap. maybe? You could get 12A cars with disk brakes and limited slip differentials. It’s irrelevant anyway since you would want to replace the brakes within the 2X rule, I actually prefer the drum brake rear end housing for the brake brackets that I make. Also there was a different final drive ratio 3.90 for 12A cars and 4.07 for SE cars but those are interchangeable by the any offered diff ratio rule. Myself I pay the 25 points and run the 4.77 KIA gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex3000 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Blarg. Well I guess I asked for this. 1. All 13b engines are not the same. It just means it's a 1.3L rotary. And especially the 84-85 13b, has many differences from the second gen motors. I won't go through them all 2. 12a cars came with 4 wheel disc and LSDs. Slight variations over the years but more or less the same. And while, yes the GSL-SE came with slightly bigger brakes, since brakes are more or less free now it's a moot point since everyone upgrades to turbo II brakes anyway. 3. The new swap calculator uses HP to calculate points: 12a = 100hp 84-85 13b = 135hp. = 50pt "swap" a later 13b would use the specific variants HP to calculate. 4. If we want to get really picky the GSL-SE is MUCH heavier that the 12a models. Like 250lbs heavier. 5. I am not doing a "forum build". I have raced this car for years and am trying to rebuild it to something more reliable and at least on the general pace. I bought this car when I was 19 for 250 bucks. It is not an option to just "put a different motor in" or "build a different car". I spend countless hours in the cold on my back cursing just to get this thing together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlorahDorah Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Alex3000 said: Blarg. Well I guess I asked for this. 1. All 13b engines are not the same. It just means it's a 1.3L rotary. And especially the 84-85 13b, has many differences from the second gen motors. I won't go through them all 2. 12a cars came with 4 wheel disc and LSDs. Slight variations over the years but more or less the same. And while, yes the GSL-SE came with slightly bigger brakes, since brakes are more or less free now it's a moot point since everyone upgrades to turbo II brakes anyway. 3. The new swap calculator uses HP to calculate points: 12a = 100hp 84-85 13b = 135hp. = 50pt "swap" a later 13b would use the specific variants HP to calculate. 4. If we want to get really picky the GSL-SE is MUCH heavier that the 12a models. Like 250lbs heavier. 5. I am not doing a "forum build". I have raced this car for years and am trying to rebuild it to something more reliable and at least on the general pace. I bought this car when I was 19 for 250 bucks. It is not an option to just "put a different motor in" or "build a different car". I spend countless hours in the cold on my back cursing just to get this thing together. tech@champcar.org 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Alex3000 said: Blarg. Well I guess I asked for this. That’s right, now your punishment is random unrelated opinions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, tommytipover said: Hey Rob, @wvumtnbkr how well would that 60' GM V6 fit in a first Gen car? Asking for a friend... I dont see why not. Since we subframe swapped our 1st gen, I could probably unbolt the engine and trans from my car (the 2nd gen with the 3400) and bolt it into the 1st gen.... Hmmmm..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ablesnead Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Actually the early 4 port 13b rotary's respond better to port work than the s4 s5 variant... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbaker480 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said: I dont see why not. Since we subframe swapped our 1st gen, I could probably unbolt the engine and trans from my car (the 2nd gen with the 3400) and bolt it into the 1st gen.... Hmmmm..... The 3400 and T5 should drop right in based on the subframe swap, I do question the driveshaft length vs the S4 chassis though. We should pull yours and put it in my car and see how well a 3500 fits in it's place, you know, for the good of everyone considering this swap Edited January 22, 2019 by bbaker480 spelling 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschiap Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 It appears the 84-85 13b (first-generation) RX7 is still missing from the list. So I just use the 1983/12A RX7 value (100 points) and apply the engine swap, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 5 hours ago, mschiap said: It appears the 84-85 13b (first-generation) RX7 is still missing from the list. So I just use the 1983/12A RX7 value (100 points) and apply the engine swap, right? Not sure. We were told to use the s4 rx7 value to start.... I don't like it and am still confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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