Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Gkuhn41

Differentials Learn Me!

Recommended Posts

We have a brewing friendly disagreement between team members we would like people who have raced longer than us weigh in. 

 

Our car, has a welded diff. One member feels it is greatly hindering our cornering ability i disagree i feel it hinders tight corners but not to the extent hes saying. We have points for an aftermarket diff, but they are $$$(not an option). Their is an OEM LSD option that is known to overheat quickly and after 2 hrs will probably be acting like a open diff.

 

So options and discussion on each please.

 

Leave it welded (how bad does it hurt handling we have nothing to compare too?)

OEM LSD that will probably end up open.

 

Aftermarket one is ruled out on $$

 

Car is a Mercedes 86 190E

 

Thanks

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stock LSD + 20pt cooler might be an option? (sorry I don't know Merc's)

 

What's your suspension setup like? How's the wet handling?

 

What style is the stock unit? (clutch, viscus, etc) Depending on the type you can play with fluids, extra springs, plates, etc to get temps under control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OEM is a clutch type LSD. We thought about the cooler option as well.

 

We have true coilovers in front and adjustable spring perches in back with shocks valved to match spring rates. running 3* camber all the way around. Car is almost square for corner weights, 50% side to side and 53% front weight full fuel with driver. We  have removed some weight out of the front recently witch will help bring it closer to 50-50.

 

It does tend to understeer slightly in the wet on entry and mid corner and then throttle overseer on corner exit (drift for days).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could try friction modifier. Worked great in some ATVs I played around with. But I bet some smarter people on here will offer advice on how to set up your suspension/alignment to deal with the low-speed push you are experimenting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are other ways to free up the entry, most people wish for that part to have more understeer to be honest. 

 

Tight radius midcorner balance will always suffer until you learn to drive the car. It will act more like a big heavy car, you will want to make the tight turns more of a "diamond" with a flick to make it rotate than a constant radius understeer plow event. 

 

Mid sized and larger radius turns seem fine. We run a welded diff in one of the car i race (230 slk). We don't have points room to run a proper diff. I help a team with a 300e that runs well and also has a welded diff, it is a small hindrance not a curse. 

 

What else would you do with those points and or money? If the answer is some cool stuff, do it first.

Edited by Black Magic
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

We have a brewing friendly disagreement between team members we would like people who have raced longer than us weigh in. 

 

Our car, has a welded diff. One member feels it is greatly hindering our cornering ability i disagree i feel it hinders tight corners but not to the extent hes saying. We have points for an aftermarket diff, but they are $$$(not an option). Their is an OEM LSD option that is known to overheat quickly and after 2 hrs will probably be acting like a open diff.

Do you have any in-car video? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

OEM is a clutch type LSD. We thought about the cooler option as well.

 

We have true coilovers in front and adjustable spring perches in back with shocks valved to match spring rates. running 3* camber all the way around. Car is almost square for corner weights, 50% side to side and 53% front weight full fuel with driver. We  have removed some weight out of the front recently witch will help bring it closer to 50-50.

 

It does tend to understeer slightly in the wet on entry and mid corner and then throttle overseer on corner exit (drift for days).

The "drift for days" seems to indicate that you're not spinning just the inside tire but are spinning both.

Edited by mender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, mender said:

The "drift for days" seems to indicate that you're not spinning just the inside tire but are spinning both.

Current diff is welded.

 

He feels opening it would help, i have 0 problem driving the car. In the dry it is a blast to drive 0 issues in my opinion, in the wet you have to diamond the corners a bit like Black Magic says.

 

In my opinion it is not a problem in his opinion it is.

 

Im looking to see if i am way off base here in my opinion that it is not worth the effort to ditch the welded diff and install a cooler or aftermarket diff for points.  Id prefer to Spend 25pts on a header, or use part to do ITB's we have room for both as far as points.

 

Just looking for peoples experiences in welding vs oem and handling differences and if its worth 20pts to cool or 25 for an aftermarket. VS other engine performance doo-dads

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been running a welded for years.  I would never go back to open.  The problem isn't with the car, but the way hes driving it.  tighten the nut behind the wheel and you wont have any issues.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

OEM is a clutch type LSD. We thought about the cooler option as well.

 

We have true coilovers in front and adjustable spring perches in back with shocks valved to match spring rates. running 3* camber all the way around. Car is almost square for corner weights, 50% side to side and 53% front weight full fuel with driver. We  have removed some weight out of the front recently witch will help bring it closer to 50-50.

 

It does tend to understeer slightly in the wet on entry and mid corner and then throttle overseer on corner exit (drift for days).

 

 

Yep, as the others say, sounds about right. The understeer is the rear tires fighting each other, and then when you're on it hard enough the inside rear (or both) gives and gets a little tail happy. 

 

Personally I don't think you're giving up much, just need to make your line work best for you. Stock LSD with a cooler should do the trick, but it's points and complexity. More tire or more power might magnify the effects though, so keep that in mind...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a torsen woud help the understeer a   little...but It sounds better for me the way it is , with easy to induce oversteer   , rotation benefits should outweigh a minor push on entry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ablesnead said:

I think a torsen woud help the understeer a   little...but It sounds better for me the way it is , with easy to induce oversteer   , rotation benefits should outweigh a minor push on entry

 

Curious why a Torsen?

 

I've only ever driven one in an FWD on a road course; never had one in an RWD, but it was quite the handful. I'd imagine the dynamics are pretty different but why Torsen instead of a well set up clutch type?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have a stock LSD seems like you could do a test day to try it back to back and see what the clock says about any differences before you go the points and expense to try to make the stock or aftermarket  LSD live in an endurance race environment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to back with no other changes may make the car loose wherever it pushes now, if everyone is already "trained" it is prob a little faster with it this way, spend those points elsewhere.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Current diff is welded.

 

He feels opening it would help, i have 0 problem driving the car. In the dry it is a blast to drive 0 issues in my opinion, in the wet you have to diamond the corners a bit like Black Magic says.

 

In my opinion it is not a problem in his opinion it is.

 

Im looking to see if i am way off base here in my opinion that it is not worth the effort to ditch the welded diff and install a cooler or aftermarket diff for points.  Id prefer to Spend 25pts on a header, or use part to do ITB's we have room for both as far as points.

 

Just looking for peoples experiences in welding vs oem and handling differences and if its worth 20pts to cool or 25 for an aftermarket. VS other engine performance doo-dads

 

 

Sorry, somehow I skipped that each time! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sensitive subject, but which of you has the faster lap times?   I’m going to guess that it is you, and the margin is about two seconds.  I will add more detail after I get the reply.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell the tale of the tapes!

 

yeah, let's see some driving before anybody opens a wallet or lifts a wrench.

 

You demand assistance and we demand entertainment!! 🐇 🐢 :ph34r:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is our channel if you want to watch a bunch of beginners screw up lol. My point was lets work on us driving faster before we worry about the car going faster. I personally feel its not that big of a deal. He thinks its horrible because in the pits the car makes a crapload of noise when you turn lol.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxO5zb07fnYPuNoR65W1KNw

 

 

2 hours ago, Racer28173 said:

Sensitive subject, but which of you has the faster lap times?   I’m going to guess that it is you, and the margin is about two seconds.  I will add more detail after I get the reply.  

 

I have significantly faster lap times. It was his first weekend in the car wheel to wheel so im giving him a pass on some of it.

 

I like the discussion, learns me up some on the current car setup and options for other builds in the future! Also gives me something to read when its -40* out!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Here is our channel if you want to watch a bunch of beginners screw up lol. My point was lets work on us driving faster before we worry about the car going faster. I personally feel its not that big of a deal. He thinks its horrible because in the pits the car makes a crapload of noise when you turn lol.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxO5zb07fnYPuNoR65W1KNw

 

 

 

I have significantly faster lap times. It was his first weekend in the car wheel to wheel so im giving him a pass on some of it.

 

I like the discussion, learns me up some on the current car setup and options for other builds in the future! Also gives me something to read when its -40* out!

 

-40?  You must be located near me lol.

 

Tell him to buck up.  I've had drivers complain about the diff, but all have learned that they're just driving the car incorrectly.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Here is our channel if you want to watch a bunch of beginners screw up lol. My point was lets work on us driving faster before we worry about the car going faster. I personally feel its not that big of a deal. He thinks its horrible because in the pits the car makes a crapload of noise when you turn lol.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxO5zb07fnYPuNoR65W1KNw

 

 

 

I have significantly faster lap times. It was his first weekend in the car wheel to wheel so im giving him a pass on some of it.

 

I like the discussion, learns me up some on the current car setup and options for other builds in the future! Also gives me something to read when its -40* out!

 

Bunch of beginners?? I wouldn't spend a bunch of money on jack poop other than seat time and safety items. Modify for performance once you're all able to drive within a tight delta, or at the least, nobody who can't come within 2sec of YOUR best time gets to say squat about what they think the car needs. 

 

Enjoy!

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a bit of a back and forth with the man himself (Randy Pobst) when asking some volvo questions.  his comment was "weld that baby up".  If the other forum banter didnt make your mind up, theres the mic drop for you to tell your buddy!

 

He doesnt like how it sounds in the pits....?  You need better friends!😂 🤣

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...