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5 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

I know when I looked at a lot of the aftermarket miata springs when this rule was put in place, almost all of the easy to find "bolt on" ones that were sold did not meet the technical spec as called out in the rule book...

 

lol... now you can get world class Penske Race Team developed shocks for Miata for 0 points and only 250 bucks a corner! I obviously picked the wrong damn platform....

Edited by atxe30

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32 minutes ago, enginerd said:

This is not the case with the BMW hoods that I have looked at, maybe the Mustang hoods are different... I would snatch up an aftermarket hood in a heartbeat if they were 0 points. Lighter and stiffer than the gutted steel hood.

 

I never said it should be zero points for a fibreglass hood.  I said 25 points is ridiculous - compare the performance of the hood to other 25 point items like:

 Headers

Air dam/splitter/5 points left over

Two suspension components/5 points left over.

 

Compare air dam/splitter/wing/skirts/diffuser to... a non-OE driveshaft.  Pretty sure there is much more cost and lap time to be gained with a full aero package over a driveshaft.  Then again maybe if you could fill the driveshaft with fuel... :o.

Edited by Ron_e

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34 minutes ago, enginerd said:

The new staff has been catching things like the offset bolts in the subframe trailing arms that are used to adjust rear toe / camber in the e30. I'm pretty sure they will catch some engine mounts!

 

 

This is not the case with the BMW hoods that I have looked at, maybe the Mustang hoods are different... I would snatch up an aftermarket hood in a heartbeat if they were 0 points. Lighter and stiffer than the gutted steel hood.

pretty much a no brainer, ex the new rules.... http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/item/e30hood.html

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13 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

I never said it should be zero points for a fibreglass hood.  I said 25 points is ridiculous - compare the performance of the hood to other 25 point items like:

 Headers

Air dam/splitter/5 points left over

Two suspension components/5 points left over.

 

Compare air dam/splitter/wing/skirts/diffuser to... a non-OE driveshaft.  Pretty sure there is much more cost and lap time to be gained with a full aero package over a driveshaft.  Then again maybe if you could fill the driveshaft with fuel... :o.

I didn't have any argument with what you said about the driveshaft, that's why I ONLY quoted the section of your post about hoods.

 

You said: 

Quote

a fiberglass hood at 25 points which is likely heavier than the stock gutted steel

I took issue with this statement that a fiberglass hood is heavier than a gutted steel hood. In my experience this is not true. I do think 25 points is high enough that it's not a good choice for most teams, but I was more focused on the apparent weight inaccuracy.

 

@atxe30, thanks for the link... that hood is about half the weight of my steel hood.

Edited by enginerd

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9 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I didn't have any argument with what you said about the driveshaft, that's why I ONLY quoted the section of your post about hoods.

 

You said: 

I took issue with this statement that a fiberglass hood is heavier than a gutted steel hood. In my experience this is not true.

 

@atxe30, thanks for the link... that hood is about half the weight of my steel hood.

 

Again, I said likely.  Stock E30 hood is 30 lbs?  Say 1/3 is bracing and 2/3 surface?  So a gutted steel hood would be 20 lbs or a couple less (remove hinges too so I would think closer to 17?), fibreglass at 14, OK steel is 3-6 lbs heavier, I would think a reasonable 10 points on a fibreglass hood.

 

At current points go all out and spend 75 points on a fibreglass hood and a non-OE driveshaft, that is a race winning recipe right there. :lol:

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10 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

Again, I said likely.  Stock E30 hood is 30 lbs?  Say 1/3 is bracing and 2/3 surface?  So a gutted steel hood would be 20 lbs or a couple less (remove hinges too so I would think closer to 17?), fibreglass at 14, OK steel is 3-6 lbs heavier, I would think a reasonable 10 points on a fibreglass hood.

 

At current points go all out and spend 75 points on a fibreglass hood and a non-OE driveshaft, that is a race winning recipe right there. :lol:

I didn't say that it was half the weight of a stock steel hood.... I said it was about half the weight of MY steel hood. The stock steel hood in it's factory condition is 38 lbs.

Edited by enginerd

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I didn't say that it was half the weight of a stock steel hood.... I said it was half the weight of MY steel hood. The stock steel hood in it's factory condition is 38 lbs.

Whatever the weight is, 25 points is ridiculous when weight reduction is zero points

 

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1 hour ago, Ron_e said:

On the flip side, all time worst bang for the buck:

 

Driveshaft at a ridiculous 50 points closely followed by a fiberglass hood at 25 points which is likely heavier than the stock gutted steel, then a coil at 10 points.

With the way the Civic eats stock half-shafts, I thought the CVs/axles, non-OE, pair for 25 points was bad enough! Moving up to Raxles this year.

 

Good thing they don't call them driveshafts instead!

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24 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Again, I said likely.  Stock E30 hood is 30 lbs?  Say 1/3 is bracing and 2/3 surface?  So a gutted steel hood would be 20 lbs or a couple less (remove hinges too so I would think closer to 17?), fibreglass at 14, OK steel is 3-6 lbs heavier, I would think a reasonable 10 points on a fibreglass hood.

 

At current points go all out and spend 75 points on a fibreglass hood and a non-OE driveshaft, that is a race winning recipe right there. :lol:

 

i look at weight holistically: pull everything you can and the aggregate matters. now, w.r.t. the e30 with m20: the far more interesting topic is cams. I can buy a re-ground cam from IE for 190 bucks that is reputed to pull through 7k. Now **that** is interesting..... and! it's almost a hundo less than hood.......hmmmmm

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56 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

 

lol... now you can get world class Penske Race Team developed shocks for Miata for 0 points and only 250 bucks a corner! I obviously picked the wrong damn platform....

I am strongly against this FYI, and no we have not bought them nor are we planning to.

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1 minute ago, atxe30 said:

 

i look at weight holistically: pull everything you can and the aggregate matters. now, w.r.t. the e30 with m20: the far more interesting topic is cams. I can buy a re-ground cam from IE for 190 bucks that is reputed to pull through 7k. Now **that** is interesting..... and! it's almost a hundo less than hood.......hmmmmm

Sweet!  Then you can put down legal dyno numbers like the e30 that won the National Event......

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3 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

I can buy a re-ground cam from IE for 190 bucks that is reputed to pull through 7k. Now **that** is interesting..... and! it's almost a hundo less than hood.......hmmmmm

giphy.gif

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5 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

I am strongly against this FYI, and no we have not bought them nor are we planning to.

 

so straight-up, i think you should be able to buy them. at the same time I shouldn't be taking 120 points fo ra very rudimentary suspension setup that cost me 1k for shocks and springs. the 2x rule shields the serious b.s. suspension-wise. these are race cars, there has to be some reasonable latitude to do stuff....(side note: i'll leave my snarky comment about adjustable dampers to the side for now...)

Edited by atxe30

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I'm on the fence about the reground cam issue. It's been discussed on here.

  • It's the "OE" cam with material removed (or added)
  • It's in the spirit of the series, strictly speaking
  • It's likely not something that can be done with Harbor Freight tools in your garage/shop

I'd really be curious how TAC/Tech looks at these. And I 100% believe there are BMW teams out there running reground stock cams. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I'm on the fence about the reground cam issue. It's been discussed on here.

  • It's the "OE" cam with material removed (or added)
  • It's in the spirit of the series, strictly speaking
  • It's likely not something that can be done with Harbor Freight tools in your garage/shop

I'd really be curious how TAC/Tech looks at these. And I 100% believe there are BMW teams out there running reground stock cams. 

 

 

yeah, i saw that discussion, which is why i chose not to do it. this is a tough one. 

 

here's the hard part: let's say i have the tooling to do this because i'm in the business. then where does that leave the folks who dont have a machine shop? no easy answer.. 

 

edit to add: and yeah, no way in hell a HF job on this ends well....lol

Edited by atxe30

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8 hours ago, Snorman said:

I'm on the fence about the reground cam issue. It's been discussed on here.

  • It's the "OE" cam with material removed (or added)
  • It's in the spirit of the series, strictly speaking
  • It's likely not something that can be done with Harbor Freight tools in your garage/shop

I'd really be curious how TAC/Tech looks at these. And I 100% believe there are BMW teams out there running reground stock cams. 

 

 

 

 

“Non OEM spec will be points. Same as aftermarket race cams.”

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11 hours ago, atxe30 said:

 

lol... now you can get world class Penske Race Team developed shocks for Miata for 0 points and only 250 bucks a corner! I obviously picked the wrong damn platform....

They are not zero points.  They are a threaded body coil over, so 10 points a corner.  Unless I missed something.   

That being said, they also open the gate to the slippery slope of suspension spending.    However much I'd like to buy them, like @hotchkis23 said we are not going to.   I just don't think its necessary for what we are doing in endurance racing.  Would it make the absolute speed of the car faster, probably by a little bit.  Its very much in the diminishing returns range.    In a Spec Miata race, I would expect cars not running the latest and greatest to be in the bottom half of the field.   In Endurance racing I think there are too many factors involved to be chasing the last 1/100th on lap time.   Especially when we are running a Miata against plenty of cars that have significantly higher PWR's   

 

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1 hour ago, frankrehnelt said:

 

 

 

“Non OEM spec will be points. Same as aftermarket race cams.”

And you can prove the non stock cam how??????

 

Tell me tech is going to start measuring lob's and duration....................right!

 

Must be a slow Sunday morning

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10 hours ago, Snorman said:

I'm on the fence about the reground cam issue. It's been discussed on here.

  • It's the "OE" cam with material removed (or added)   (Not with Harbor freight tools in the back yard)
  • It's in the spirit of the series, strictly speaking  (I disagree, but that's ok)
  • It's likely not something that can be done with Harbor Freight tools in your garage/shop  (I agree thats why it should be points)

I'd really be curious how TAC/Tech looks at these. And I 100% believe there are BMW teams out there running reground stock cams.  (Yep)

 

Added some opinions above

 

The real problem with the cam issue or really any internal engine component is the near violent opposition to ever tearing down an engine.  Its not going to happen, and even when they show wonky high numbers on the dyno nothing is done.    (Thats another topic, on why money is wasted bringing in a dyno)

 

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34 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

They are not zero points.  They are a threaded body coil over, so 10 points a corner.  Unless I missed something.   

That being said, they also open the gate to the slippery slope of suspension spending.    However much I'd like to buy them, like @hotchkis23 said we are not going to.   I just don't think its necessary for what we are doing in endurance racing.  Would it make the absolute speed of the car faster, probably by a little bit.  Its very much in the diminishing returns range.    In a Spec Miata race, I would expect cars not running the latest and greatest to be in the bottom half of the field.   In Endurance racing I think there are too many factors involved to be chasing the last 1/100th on lap time.   Especially when we are running a Miata against plenty of cars that have significantly higher PWR's   

 

 

I need some help with the slippery slope assertion. Isn't that why the 2x rule exists? What am I missing?

 

edit to add: i can see your calculus on the diminishing returns thing, but under the 2x ceiling it should be up to the team to decide where to invest, etc.. 

 

Edited by atxe30

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4 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

 

I need some help with the slippery slope assertion. Isn't that why the 2x rule exists? What am I missing?

 

Its just an opinion of mine.  I don't think its that much of a stretch that we will see folks from platform XYZ bring forward the argument that "hey those stinking Miata's get race developed shocks we should too, look they are only $275 a corner, that's nothing.  I know they are single adjustable but that's not a big deal, it cheaper than buying 4 sets of shocks and running the best ones. "  And then a little further down the slope is "we should get rid of the 2x rule and make an approved list of shocks that we think are ok"  "oh you know these adjustable ones are ok for the list"  Boom $800 a year for rebuilds and change the custom valving a little to account for the improvements we made in aero.   

 

Its not like we seen people run cars that were a little outside of what some of us thought fit the rules, and then suddenly some words were changed to make them fit in the 500 pt boundary..............or have we...........    Embrace the slope and speed creep.    

 

I could be completely wrong and just paranoid.     But it not paranoia if they are really following you....., gotta go......

 

:)

 

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1 hour ago, 55mini said:

And you can prove the non stock cam how??????

 

Tell me tech is going to start measuring lob's and duration....................right!

 

Must be a slow Sunday morning

 

I put it in quotes for a reason. If people are allowed to run a reground stock cam without taking points for it I was going to get one. They are not so I am not. 

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4 hours ago, atxe30 said:

 

I need some help with the slippery slope assertion. Isn't that why the 2x rule exists? What am I missing?

 

edit to add: i can see your calculus on the diminishing returns thing, but under the 2x ceiling it should be up to the team to decide where to invest, etc.. 

 

Technically they are single adjustable so I would see them as being the 10pts. per shock. 

 

This was a point of contention at Road America this last fall when a lot of Hondas and Acuras came through with Ground Control Shocks, which are essentially whatever shock body you want, matched to the settings you want and paired with a spring rate, then the adjustable nut is welded to make them nonadjustable.  This was such an issue that Mike C. had to come down to the tech shed and explain that even though Ground Control advertised them as acceptable as nonadjustable shocks in CC, that was in no way true and he considered them to be adjustable as they were at one time, regardless of if they were no longer.  I beleive 4 different teams ended up moving to ec as a result of taking the 75pt. per shock hit as they were valued last season.

 

I hope that the rule is treated the same for the Penskes, as I agree we will only open up a giant slope of B.S. and back room agreements from teams.  I can imagine some of the more well off teams creating all kinds of adjustable combinations and merely welding the adjuster once they dial in where they want to be.  To the point that during a Friday practice day you might see it.  Also, 10pts. per for adjustable shocks isn't that bad of a pts hit, as long as it is regulated to the low end ones and not the $4k sets....

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1 hour ago, hotchkis23 said:

Technically they are single adjustable so I would see them as being the 10pts. per shock. 

.........................

 

Also, 10pts. per for adjustable shocks isn't that bad of a pts hit, as long as it is regulated to the low end ones and not the $4k sets....

 

I think you mean 25 pts per corner for adjustable shocks.  

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