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 The welded adjustable shock thing has been talked about extensively, it has never been allowed to be called nonadjustable, It’s disappointing that some teams got caught with their pants down.  

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1 hour ago, QuaTTro said:

 

I think you mean 25 pts per corner for adjustable shocks.  

The aren't adjustable.   They can be rebuilt, so one might be able to fine a place to custom valve them.  The problem will likely be that SCCA and NASA will likely have Penske lock down the parts availability so not just any shop can do them.   I don't know,  I do think it takes us into dangerous territory. 

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2 hours ago, QuaTTro said:

 

I think you mean 25 pts per corner for adjustable shocks.  

Thanks, I just drive, so point values for parts aren't my forte.  I wonder how much of Mazda recognizing the series has to do with the series allowing in spec cars and the rules they play by?

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On 2/2/2019 at 6:51 PM, mender said:

 As an engine guy, I'm always finding interesting stuff. Picked up one of these:

Related image

And was thinking about converting it to electronic injectors and adapting it to the Civic. Should be 50 points from what I see. I also have a pair of 45 mm Webers so am wondering if that would also be 50 points.

 

We considered going to ITBS similar to that on our 190E, Tech confirmed 50pts for ITB's. Too bad our transmission needed to be rebuilt. Im sure that would have turned some heads!

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16 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

Thanks, I just drive, so point values for parts aren't my forte.  I wonder how much of Mazda recognizing the series has to do with the series allowing in spec cars and the rules they play by?

I think it's more of a business decision by ChampCar. If they're outlawed you've eliminated a TON of potential cars to run in the series. While our car is optimized to the BCCR, I'm sure there are a lot of entries that are built to SCCA/NASA rule sets. 

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1 minute ago, Wink said:

I think it's more of a business decision by ChampCar. If they're outlawed you've eliminated a TON of potential cars to run in the series. While our car is optimized to the BCCR, I'm sure there are a lot of entries that are built to SCCA/NASA rule sets. 

If the shocks are outlawed, that only means that all those potential cars can still run, just have to get compliant shocks to do so.

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2 minutes ago, mender said:

If the shocks are outlawed, that only means that all those potential cars can still run, just have to get compliant shocks to do so.

"Added expense for my turn key racecar?? I'll just go run WRL"

 

Is how I imagine it would

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3 minutes ago, Wink said:

"Added expense for my turn key racecar?? I'll just go run WRL"

 

Is how I imagine it would

And that would be their choice. 

 

Better than "oh look, the Miatas are allowed spec shocks, the BMWs should be allowed to run spec series shocks, too, and too bad, so sad about the rest of the field".

 

Is how I know it would go.

Edited by mender

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4 minutes ago, Wink said:

Spec E30 runs Billies?

 

They run Penskes now IIRC. 

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1 minute ago, Wink said:

Spec E30 runs Billies?

 

Just now, red0 said:

 

They run Penskes now IIRC. 

yeah with the new GC coil over kit right?

 

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2019 NASA Spec E30 Ruleset

 

9.3.8. Suspension

9.3.8.3.1. Bilstein Sport shocks - part number B36-2027 shall be used.

9.3.8.4.1. Bilstein Sport insert - part number P36-0335 or P30-0334 shall be used.

 

??

 

Off topic anyway... Ask the board their reasoning and I'll bet their logic was as I explained. 

Edited by Wink

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31 minutes ago, Wink said:

I think it's more of a business decision by ChampCar. If they're outlawed you've eliminated a TON of potential cars to run in the series. While our car is optimized to the BCCR, I'm sure there are a lot of entries that are built to SCCA/NASA rule sets. 

 

I doubt the competitve sm guys that are running a year around schedule would risk running their car and put the wear and tear on it...

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Personal observation: I've seen series go under because the organizers were too busy chasing the next thing and didn't take care of their existing market.

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6 minutes ago, Racer7x said:

 

I doubt the competitve sm guys that are running a year around schedule would risk running their car and put the wear and tear on it...

 

Yeah but as those cars age off the SM series, they are a good fit for Champ. We see them come in from time to time at Harris Hill. That said, they do have to be reduxed a bit to comply with HH miata spec, but people do do it.

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On 2/2/2019 at 8:49 PM, mender said:

Ala F1 of days gone by?

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/videos/a32452/how-variable-length-intake-works/

 

The turbulence explanation is unfortunately wrong but the graph of the length of the runners is interesting. I have found that changing the length of just the intake (static of course) can make holes in the torque curve because of the interaction with the header scavenging. The OHC six that I did last year made some pretty startling power and torque gains when switching from the four barrel and intake to the triple Webers. An EFI ITB system with no venturis would have been even better, and a rotary or flat plate throttle system would be better still.

 

As always, it's a battle to get the most benefit within the power band of the engine, and it would be a lot of fun to try out a variable length system on the dyno. :)

Here is a paper written by guys at RIT about the time I went to school there.

 

http://edge.rit.edu/edge/Reports/public/2009-10/Technical_Papers/P10227_Technical_Paper.pdf

 

 

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The shock rules need addressing in my opinion. One way or the other.

 

I get the rabbit holes, and the dead horse, and all that jazz. I agree with most of the points made with adjustable shocks and not wanting to go down that slippery slope but sit back and look at the rules and what they are saying here. I emailed tech last year regarding this and was told it is within the rules to have shocks custom valved and even to have multiple sets of shocks valved differently, and the re-valve doesn't count against the 2x rule. 

 

Wait, You just said it was allowed to have the shock opened, valved and sealed....how is this ANY different than buying an adjustable shock under the 2x, setting it, and welding it in place so it is not readily adjusted during the race?

 

I have customized my shock, it can not be readily adjusted, and it is under the 2x rule 100%. VPI increase of 25pts each shock

Team B has customized their shock, it can not be readily adjusted and it is over the 2x rule with the adjustment costs. VPI increase 0pts.

 

Makes 100% sense to me.

 

You dont want adjustable shocks ran 100% ok with that, but then the shock can not be rebuilt, re-valved, or molested in any way.(how do you enforce that?) If that is not the case you need to allow teams to buy an adjustable shock that is under the 2X rule set them and seal them.

 

You can kill me for my opinion now. 😃

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32 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

I emailed tech last year regarding this and was told it is within the rules to have shocks custom valved and even to have multiple sets of shocks valved differently, and the re-valve doesn't count against the 2x rule. 

 

Wait, You just said it was allowed to have the shock opened, valved and sealed....how is this ANY different than buying an adjustable shock under the 2x, setting it, and welding it in place so it is not readily adjusted during the race?

 

What?  The stuff you learn about from these forum posts.....

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2 hours ago, Racer7x said:

 

I doubt the competitve sm guys that are running a year around schedule would risk running their car and put the wear and tear on it...

The competitive SM guys go through Miatas like pez.  It is a throwaway car to them.  They just take one they feel is no longer National Sprint race worthy and run the snot out of it for enduros.  

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1 hour ago, Gkuhn41 said:

dead horse

 You know the funny part, the teams that can afford to do as you describe are so busy doing this, that they miss the mark on endurance racing, they have yet to dominate because of grandiose failures of every other kind.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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2 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

The shock rules need addressing in my opinion. One way or the other.

 

I get the rabbit holes, and the dead horse, and all that jazz. I agree with most of the points made with adjustable shocks and not wanting to go down that slippery slope but sit back and look at the rules and what they are saying here. I emailed tech last year regarding this and was told it is within the rules to have shocks custom valved and even to have multiple sets of shocks valved differently, and the re-valve doesn't count against the 2x rule. 

 

 

ChampCar is not the only series to use nonadjustable shocks. :D

 

I have a friend that was one of the first people to bring shaker rigs into F1 back in the 90’s. Back then the rig only had 4 posts and to simulate downforce they had a winch at each end to crank the car down before they started the testing…

 

He was adamant that they would never use adjustable shocks, even though they were legal, because it introduced a level of uncertainty of how much a click was worth. They only used nonadjustable shocks that they had run across the rig and sent to the track as a matched set, of course at their level they would have had dozens of matched sets in the hauler.

 

Oh yea, I live 15 minutes from one of the most sophisticated shaker rigs in North America :ph34r:

 

 

 

Edited by mhr650
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2 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

The shock rules need addressing in my opinion. One way or the other.

 

I get the rabbit holes, and the dead horse, and all that jazz. I agree with most of the points made with adjustable shocks and not wanting to go down that slippery slope but sit back and look at the rules and what they are saying here. I emailed tech last year regarding this and was told it is within the rules to have shocks custom valved and even to have multiple sets of shocks valved differently, and the re-valve doesn't count against the 2x rule. 

 

Wait, You just said it was allowed to have the shock opened, valved and sealed....how is this ANY different than buying an adjustable shock under the 2x, setting it, and welding it in place so it is not readily adjusted during the race?

 

I have customized my shock, it can not be readily adjusted, and it is under the 2x rule 100%. VPI increase of 25pts each shock

Team B has customized their shock, it can not be readily adjusted and it is over the 2x rule with the adjustment costs. VPI increase 0pts.

 

Makes 100% sense to me.

 

You dont want adjustable shocks ran 100% ok with that, but then the shock can not be rebuilt, re-valved, or molested in any way.(how do you enforce that?) If that is not the case you need to allow teams to buy an adjustable shock that is under the 2X rule set them and seal them.

 

You can kill me for my opinion now. 😃

 

Out of curiosity, who from tech responded to you last year?

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On 2/2/2019 at 8:48 PM, enginerd said:

The new staff has been catching things like the offset bolts in the subframe trailing arms that are used to adjust rear toe / camber in the e30.

 

Since when does hardware take points?  If I'm now taking points for a eccentric bolt/washer I yanked out of a parts car I hope you boys enjoy this series.....this will be my last season.

Edited by Bremsen

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

 You know the funny part, the teams that can afford to do as you describe are so busy doing this, that they miss the mark on endurance racing, they have yet to dominate because of grandiose failures of every other kind.

 

We raced 2 weekends last year and had no DNF's some may have been dumb luck but either way well take it!

 

We are not looking for some sneaky fast swap shocks out at a whim set up. For our car it happens to be the same price for our rear shocks either way, thats how this all came about.

 

Trust me im not trying to stir up a bunch of controversy or piss people off. Of course that is what opinions do is piss people off most the time in a forum. Ill quietly walk away now.....

 

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