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Reground Camshafts

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This subject was brought up in the Road Atlanta thread.. I decided to put this in it's own thread instead of derailing that one.

I decided to ask Mike Chisek instead of listening to the forum posts of people who claim to have talked with an unknown person in tech.

 

In short the question I asked was: Reground OE camshafts with non-OE lift and / or duration. Is it 50 points or 0 points ??

And the response was:

Quote

Cams that are not stock (OE part numbers and specs) are a 50 point upgrade.

Edited by enginerd
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 I've seen enginerd's email. The CEOs word trumps that of Tech and/or fellow competitors. We've had these issues before where somebody gives out bad information. I've brought it up before in TAC discussions that Tech's job is to enforce the written rules along with understanding them first. And, without witnessing the conversation none of us know whether Huggy was told that it was legal, or it was legal but cost 50 points.

i'm glad to see this clarification. I will see if we can get it stated in the tech update section of the forum.

Edited by mcoppola

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I think Huggins stated tech said they were legal. Not sure he said anything about points. I asked tech the same. They said they were legal but are a 50 point add on. 

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9 hours ago, enginerd said:

This subject was brought up in the Road Atlanta thread.. I decided to put this in it's own thread instead of derailing that one.

I decided to ask Mike Chisek instead of listening to the forum posts of people who claim to have talked with an unknown person in tech.

 

In short the question I asked was: Reground OE camshafts with non-OE lift and / or duration. Is it 50 points or 0 points ??

And the response was:

Thanks for passing this on Nate.   

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10 hours ago, enginerd said:

This subject was brought up in the Road Atlanta thread.. I decided to put this in it's own thread instead of derailing that one.

I decided to ask Mike Chisek instead of listening to the forum posts of people who claim to have talked with an unknown person in tech.

 

In short the question I asked was: Reground OE camshafts with non-OE lift and / or duration. Is it 50 points or 0 points ??

And the response was:

 

Ah, the email I got from Tech makes sense now.   I believe you misread my post. 

I apologize for any confusion and apologize to Jay for not making this more clear in that post and likely putting him on the spot.

 

I have edited that post (Page 12 of the Road Atlanta thread) to clarify.

This is what it originally said: (quote is from Lethal Cliff)

 

Quote

I want it to be clear i could care less about any specific car.  I just want engine rules to actually be enforced.  Pulling a valve cover to look at cams is a waste of time. Unless we get some degree wheels and dial indicators out there, cam rules are useless.

Not disagreeing with you, but as of now reground oe cams are legal.  Jay verified that they were oe cams.  

 

and this is what I said in the edit:

 

Tech did not comment, condone, or address the reground cam topic at Atlanta Impound.

The above comment regarding reground cams is my opinion, and does not necessarily represent the opinion or interpretation of champcar, tech, the BOD, or TAC.

 

What happened in Atlanta is that the cam gears were removed on the Miata.  When I asked, I was told it was so Tech (jay) could verify the authenticity of the installed camshafts.  I am not sure exactly what he was looking for or found.  Per this picture, there doesnt appear to be any markings on the camshaft snout under the timing gears.

41.jpg

 

3 hours ago, jakks said:

Which seems to go against what tech told @Huggy

 

See above - Tech told me nothing regarding the reground camshaft question, and I did not ask anything relating to the reground camshaft question.

 

I asked why the cam gears were removed.  I have done a few miata timing belts (both 1.6 and 1.8) and do not recall any markings on the cam snout.  You can see above what I was told, but I am still not 100% sure what he was looking at.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, frankrehnelt said:

I think Huggins stated tech said they were legal. Not sure he said anything about points. I asked tech the same. They said they were legal but are a 50 point add on. 

 

Huggins stated that Tech stated that PartsBadger's cams were legal at Road Atlanta.

 

The context of that post was whether or not the parts badger cams were OE cams or not OE cams.  Per tech's comments at impound at atlanta, they were OE cams.

Lethal Cliff was responding to Jer, who was discussing checking the specs of the cams in PartsBadger

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Separately, as a new statement, unrelated to the above, and purely my interpretations of the rules and of my opinion

 

There are no rules saying that camshafts must conform to OE lift, duration, timing, etc.  

There are no rules saying that you must use hand tools to make modifications (this went away starting with the 2018 rules IIRC)

It has been established that porting and polishing is legal for no points (as material removal)


Regrinding a camshaft, as a general rule, consists of material removal.  

 

Thus, it is my opinion, that regardless of what Mike Chisek says, that under the current rules regrinding a camshaft is a legal modification in this "builders" series.  *note* I hold a very high opinion of Mike, and think he is taking this series to great places, but that does not mean I can't disagree with him.

 

For clarification, to my knowledge, I do not have any reground camshafts in my cars.  I say "to my knowledge" since I personally have not measured the lift or duration of any of my camshafts.  I look at them and see there isn't a wear mark from the rocker or from the lifter and move on with my life.

 

I would be interested if any of you know the stock lift and duration specs for your model, and have actually measured them to confirm? 

I dunno if this is even possible for some models to do while the cam is in the engine (specifically OHV engines, but also for some OHC engines).

 

I hope that clears this up, 
Regards

Huggy

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15 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Can you make reground camshafts in your garage using normal shop tools?

 

 

Where is that requirement in the rules?  

 

Regardless, non oe spec cams are 50 points.  Reground at your house or the machine shop.  

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22 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Can you make reground camshafts in your garage using normal shop tools?

 

It doesn't really matter if you can or not, because as many have pointed out, there is no longer anything in the BCCR that says modifications need to be done using hand tools, or normal shop tools.

Edited by mcoppola
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32 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Separately, as a new statement, unrelated to the above, and purely my interpretations of the rules and of my opinion

 

There are no rules saying that camshafts must conform to OE lift, duration, timing, etc.  

There are no rules saying that you must use hand tools to make modifications (this went away starting with the 2018 rules IIRC)

It has been established that porting and polishing is legal for no points (as material removal)


Regrinding a camshaft, as a general rule, consists of material removal.  

 

Thus, it is my opinion, that regardless of what Mike Chisek says, that under the current rules regrinding a camshaft is a legal modification in this "builders" series.  *note* I hold a very high opinion of Mike, and think he is taking this series to great places, but that does not mean I can't disagree with him.

 

I would be interested if any of you know the stock lift and duration specs for your model, and have actually measured them to confirm? 

 

I hope that clears this up, 
Regards

Huggy

@Huggy Chris, thanks for providing everyone with your clarification.

I understand your reasoning when you made the statements above, however like I said, I think Mike Chisek's word trumps what we may think/interpret in many cases. One of our goals within the TAC is to make the BCCR wording clarify what is, and what isn't allowed. Unfortunately, that creates more words = longer rulebook, and the BCCR is not always explicit, partially due to the complexity involved with detailing every last piece of a racecar. That's where the "spirit of the rule" comes in.  It always a compromise of length vs. brevity. Thanks for all of the petitions you submitted, I'm looking forward to seeing them, in the hopes that there are suggestions not to change rules, but to clarify them better.

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Just now, mindspin311 said:

I still don't understand the concept of regrinding a cam. How are you creating lift by removing materials? 🤣

You make the base circle smaller, so the lobe is actually a bigger delta form base circle to full lobe dimension.

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2 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

I still don't understand the concept of regrinding a cam. How are you creating lift by removing materials? 🤣

 

You make the "base circle" smaller, then adjust the eccentric to keep the same valve lash.

 

The "base circle" is the circular part of that doesnt touch the rocker arm.

 

The lift, or "egg" part, is then farther away, so more lift

Edited by Huggy
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Anyone want to 3rd that? LOL, we couldn't have worded the first phrase closer if we tried!

Edited by mcoppola
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4 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

You make the base circle smaller, so the lobe is actually a bigger delta form base circle to full lobe dimension.

 

3 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

You make the "base circle" smaller, then adjust the eccentric to keep the same valve lash.

 

The "base circle" is the circular part of that doesnt touch the rocker arm.

 

The lift, or "egg" part, is then farther away, so more lift

Alright, that makes sense.

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What is the required spec range going to be if we are monitoring lift and duration on oe shafts now? It’s a slippery slope just like measuring horsepower and determining if it’s within the acceptable range or not. 

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2 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

What is the required spec range going to be if we are monitoring lift and duration on oe shafts now? It’s a slippery slope just like measuring horsepower and determining if it’s within the acceptable range or not. 

 

I have run non oe cams in one of my neon motors. 

 

To really notice the power, you are gonna notice the lift and duration. Like .050 to .100 or more lift change, and 20+ degrees of duration. 

 

You will also notice the idle quality, and vacuum....

Edited by Black Magic

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9 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

@Huggy Chris, thanks for providing everyone with your clarification.

I understand your reasoning when you made the statements above, however like I said, I think Mike Chisek's word trumps what we may think/interpret in many cases. One of our goals within the TAC is to make the BCCR wording clarify what is, and what isn't allowed. Unfortunately, that creates more words = longer rulebook, and the BCCR is not always explicit, partially due to the complexity involved with detailing every last piece of a racecar. That's where the "spirit of the rule" comes in.  It always a compromise of length vs. brevity. Thanks for all of the petitions you submitted, I'm looking forward to seeing them, in the hopes that there are suggestions not to change rules, but to clarify them better.

 

Mike,

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

I was under the impression that having someones emailed answer as justification was a direction the series was attempting to go away from.  Specifically, wasn't this the justification for forming the TAC?

 

In this case, what Mike replied to Nate does not match what the BCCR states.

 

I chose this series because it is a builders series.  The BCCR specifically does not contain one of those catch all rules like "if it doesnt say you can, you cant".  I definitely DO NOT want that to become a thing.  Champcar is Champcar because its a builders series, and builders have creativity to do things.

 

I am not one to push this "short rule book" thing either. I think its nonsense. 

If you want a rule to be followed, you need to believe in it and write the rule in a detailed enough manner to make its intent apparent.  You will see this in some of the petitions I wrote.

Conversely, if you want Tech to have some leeway, IE the fender rule, dont put in concrete values that make it so specific that teams will then want clarification.  That rule is both too specific and not specific enough in one go, if that makes sense.

 

 

In this case, we have established that materials can be removed and OE parts can be modified without having to claim points.  If a reground cam is 50 points, you might as well just go out and buy a new racing cam - it will have better specs anyways.

 

Also, as stated above, I don't believe this rule is enforceable.  How do we check the cam specs on a 5.0 mustang in impound?  How do we check specs on my car even?  I have been looking for stock camshaft dimensions for a M20B25 for about 30 minutes, and have not found any yet.

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1 minute ago, Black Magic said:

 

I have run non oe cams in one of my neon motors. 

 

To really notice the power, you are gonna notice the lift and duration. Like .050 to .100 or more lift change, and 20+ degrees of duration. 

 

You will also notice the idle quality, and vacuum....

My main concern is that there has to be a specified tolerance or the rule is useless.

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10 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

I still don't understand the concept of regrinding a cam. How are you creating lift by removing materials? 🤣

 

The other options are 

 

Regrind cam on smaller base circle and deck the cam caps the amount of the base circle reduction (needed to fit your cam profile on the oem material). You then re bore the cam journals in the head to size, dropping the cam down in the head for ohc engines. 

 

Several cam companies offer welded regrinds, where they remove the surface hardness, weld on the cam, grind it and then re harden it. Webcams for example. 

 

Depending on how rare your engine is, the cam companies may or may not have cam blanks from the oem or aftermarket available. This creates the welded and small base circle cam industries. 

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4 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

My main concern is that there has to be a specified tolerance or the rule is useless.

My suggestion

 

+.030 lift at valve, - infinity

+10 deg duration, - infinity

 

In head measurements will always read low. Failing these would be a pretty clear non oe.....

 

You would need a stock engine, or well supported engine to know the stock .050 lift specs. Advertised numbers are junk.

Edited by Black Magic
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FYI 

I have not and do not plan on writing a petition on this topic, as I do not believe in restricting the use of reground cams.

 

Also,

 

Are we only talking about lift, or are we also talking about duration?  What about timing?

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