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JDChristianson

What level of building is too much?

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27 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

1+ Unlimited standalone, perhaps MS2 max?

 

 

Or at least look at making them 50pts instead in lieu of running 50pts of full car aero?

 

I know the pitchforks are going to be coming my way again by the standalone teams like they did 2 years ago...

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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Opening up ECU's got the OBD1's out of the penalty box compared to the OBD2 ECU's.  To a small degree it took away the advantage of the carbs being able to swap jets for free.  Changing ECU's from 75 points to zero leveled the playing field for OBD1, OBD2, carbs.

 

If you want to limit hp then make non-OE injectors 50 points, just like a driveshaft is 50 points. Heck, make non-OE injectors 100 points.  This will limit hp and turbo builds in a big way, tune as you wish for fuel economy.

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13 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

Opening up ECU's got the OBD1's out of the penalty box compared to the OBD2 ECU's.  To a small degree it took away the advantage of the carbs being able to swap jets for free.  Changing ECU's from 75 points to zero leveled the playing field for OBD1, OBD2, carbs.

 

If you want to limit hp then make non-OE injectors 50 points, just like a driveshaft is 50 points. Heck, make non-OE injectors 100 points.  This will limit hp and turbo builds in a big way, tune as you wish for fuel economy.

 

 

I had no problem with oem ecu's being open for "0 points", the opening up of "free" standalones in general was the problem...

 

Did the series grassroots, racing on the "cheap" philosophy include Haltechs, MoTecs, AEM's and MS3 Pro's to get to the pointy end of the field?

 

 

Edited by Racer7x

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11 minutes ago, Racer7x said:

 

 

I had no problem with oem ecu's being open for "0 points", the opening up of "free" standalones in general was the problem...

 

Did the series grassroots, racing on the "cheap" philosophy include Haltechs, MoTecs, AEM's and MS3 Pro's to get to the pointy end of the field?

 

 

 

That is the position of the OBD2 cars, just put OBD1 cars in the penalty box and that will solve the problems of the world.  We spent $1500 in dyno time trying to get our OBD1 ECU tuned, however at the end of the day some parameters just cannot be adjusted, somewhere in the settings something is unhappy and cannot be adjusted.  We finally gave up and bought a MegaSquirt to have the same tunability as the OBD2 cars.

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27 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

Opening up ECU's got the OBD1's out of the penalty box compared to the OBD2 ECU's.  To a small degree it took away the advantage of the carbs being able to swap jets for free.  Changing ECU's from 75 points to zero leveled the playing field for OBD1, OBD2, carbs.

 

If you want to limit hp then make non-OE injectors 50 points, just like a driveshaft is 50 points. Heck, make non-OE injectors 100 points.  This will limit hp and turbo builds in a big way, tune as you wish for fuel economy.

Agree.   The obdII cars had a huge advantage.   And the opening up Fuel injectors and such was a jumbo mistake in my opinion.   

 

 

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2 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Agree.   The obdII cars had a huge advantage.   And the opening up Fuel injectors and such was a jumbo mistake in my opinion.   

Good thing my swapped engine had the oversized (for gas) flex fuel injectors. :)

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

That is the position of the OBD2 cars, just put OBD1 cars in the penalty box and that will solve the problems of the world.  

 

 

 

Would that one fall under "we didn't choose your platform" logic? 

 

It "is what it is" now, it just upped the monetary investment to try to keep up with the Jones's at the pointy end of the field now relating to this topic...

 

I do see $800 barrels of race fuel as something that should be looked at again...

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Racer7x said:

 

 

Would that one fall under "we didn't choose your platform" logic? 

 

It "is what it is" now, it just upped the monetary investment to try to keep up with the Jones's at the pointy end of the field now relating to this topic...

 

I do see $800 barrels of race fuel as something that should be looked at again...

The  "we didn't pick your car" wasn't logic, it was a bunch of kids on the playground yelling taunts at the kid that wasn't part of the in-crowd. ;)

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4 minutes ago, Racer7x said:

 

 

Would that one fall under "we didn't choose your platform" logic? 

 

It "is what it is" now, it just upped the monetary investment to try to keep up with the Jones's at the pointy end of the field now relating to this topic...

 

I do see $800 barrels of race fuel as something that should be looked at again...

 

 

 

No that falls under the logic of put all OBD1 cars in the penalty box and give the advantage to OBD2 cars.

 

Was there ever a petition to open up fuel injectors?

 

The initial statement was that opening up fuel injectors didn't matter that much as turbos were limited to OE within the VPI list, later that was changed to any aftermarket turbo as well as any injector.

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When I got into Chaumpcar, I thought:

1. I could build a car and race it against the same people under the same rules for a few years without major revisions and cost every year.

2. I had finally gotten into a series early enough in the usual escalation cycle to be able to afford racing again.

3. It was a great opportunity to race the tracks that I'd seen on TV and read about.

4. I could build a car that I wanted to build and not have to get "The Car" to be able to compete on even terms.

5. The series would be stable enough to have races in my region for the foreseeable future.

 

My batting average isn't very good; the results:

1. It started out looking like this would be true but the rule and speed creep that I saw in the first couple of years has lately taken a rather steep increase.

2. See #1

3.  This was the main draw for me, and I can now say that I've raced on two more historic tracks and two of the best newer tracks around. 

4. The Fiero has moved to a different series that allows it to compete heads up for a podium. We bought a Civic to reduce running costs (and easier to drive) and no longer try to contend for an overall win. If I were to start now with the intention of overall podiums, I would build a Miata or a BMW.

5. We will continue to do our best to support Champcar in our region if/when possible. 

 

Chumpcar was originally geared to cheap cars and cheap racing. For the time, my Fiero build was on the high end of a typical field; now the upper end is about 3X of what I spent. Certain things I welcome because I want the room to play: aero and adjustable shocks are the two big ones for me but I didn't expect Champ to ever allow that in a budget series. Walking through the pits at a recent race and seeing what cars and mods are allowed now would be surreal for a competitor who hadn't been to a race in the last few years.

 

I wonder how long it will be until we see the next budget racing series pop up to fill the void and cater to the racers left behind by Champ moving up-market.

Edited by mender
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It isn't about the money, it's the never ending dilution of the original mission statement.

 

Cheap cars, great tracks or something like that I think it was.

 

The cars are still cheap, but the standard to which they are being compared has been elevated.  

 

The Frankenstein builders decry the stifling of ingenuity all while laughing maniacally back in their labs as they relish their victories within the petition system. 

 

Engine swaps are the new normal, and the rabbit hole is big enough to drive a truck through.

 

The speed and aggressiveness of a significant number of the competitors is off putting to many people that might otherwise participate in the series.  Back when this all started, getting passed by the likes of the Riley Probe was a seamless process.  The last ChampCar race I ran in October I was juked by three different cars mid-turn to force me out of their way. That's not a display of skill, that is being an ass-hole..

 

The oppurtunist has always been the beneficiary of rule changes and interpretations in ChumpCar and what we have today is the result.  The easier it is to game the system the more we see the degenerate gamblers and the hustlers making a play for the jackpot.

 

When we went from Stock, or in most cars, Semi-Stock configuration the series lost its soul.

 

As for the thinking that some teams dominate, I'll ask this, which teams dominate in multiple regions?  I think that number is less frightening than the woe is me crowd would quote.  KSR rarely leaves Florida.  The teams that dominate VIR don't travel to the Midwest. RBank travels among maybe a handful of regions but even they know where they have a better than average chance to podium.

 

So, no it isn't the money.  It's the amount of soul destroying fun sucking aggression that is perpetrated by the also rans that believe a dirty move will get them to the podium.  It's the incessant rules lawyering, the constant need for new rules to keep up with cheating in the name of "ingenuity".

 

This series has always been The Wild Wild West, it's just that now the gun fighters are stepping over each other just to stand in line for their chance at the top. 

 

 

 

 

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Okay....

 

Who let dog out of his crate?

 

 

In all seriousness, I can see this happening exactly as you say.  I know Julie (a champcar and lemons race winning driver) is no longer comfortable with the aggression and 0utright pace necessary to run at the front.

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$1K barrels of race fuel should not be needed to field a car in this series...

 

When that started happening the series management should of taken notice to reign things back in...

 

Cars that need racing fuel to operate should be running in ec...

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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7 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

 

In all seriousness, I can see this happening exactly as you say.  I know Julie (a champcar and lemons race winning driver) is no longer comfortable with the aggression and 0utright pace necessary to run at the front.

 

Disagree, I believe the driving has gotten better over the 4 years I've been racing with the series.  Yes, there are a couple of known cars to watch out for but overall, most everyone has gotten better and faster.   

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Just now, Snake said:

 

Disagree, I believe the driving has gotten better over the 4 years I've been racing with the series.  Yes, there are a couple of known cars to watch out for but overall, most everyone has gotten better and faster.   

That sounds like the real problem. This person doesnt feel like trying to win. They were used to cruising to Lemons victories.

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8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

In all seriousness, I can see this happening exactly as you say.  I know Julie (a champcar and lemons race winning driver) is no longer comfortable with the aggression and 0utright pace necessary to run at the front.

I agree,   I think there are quite a few people that feel this way.   

 

I have a prediction.   It won't be to long before someone posts something like "blah blah if you cant run with the big dogs stay on the porch.  Racing is for super badass guys blah blah"

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1 hour ago, dogtired said:

It isn't about the money, it's the never ending dilution of the original mission statement.

 

Cheap cars, great tracks or something like that I think it was.

 

The cars are still cheap, but the standard to which they are being compared has been elevated.  

 

The Frankenstein builders decry the stifling of ingenuity all while laughing maniacally back in their labs as they relish their victories within the petition system. 

 

Engine swaps are the new normal, and the rabbit hole is big enough to drive a truck through.

 

The speed and aggressiveness of a significant number of the competitors is off putting to many people that might otherwise participate in the series.  Back when this all started, getting passed by the likes of the Riley Probe was a seamless process.  The last ChampCar race I ran in October I was juked by three different cars mid-turn to force me out of their way. That's not a display of skill, that is being an ass-hole..

 

The oppurtunist has always been the beneficiary of rule changes and interpretations in ChumpCar and what we have today is the result.  The easier it is to game the system the more we see the degenerate gamblers and the hustlers making a play for the jackpot.

 

When we went from Stock, or in most cars, Semi-Stock configuration the series lost its soul.

 

As for the thinking that some teams dominate, I'll ask this, which teams dominate in multiple regions?  I think that number is less frightening than the woe is me crowd would quote.  KSR rarely leaves Florida.  The teams that dominate VIR don't travel to the Midwest. RBank travels among maybe a handful of regions but even they know where they have a better than average chance to podium.

 

So, no it isn't the money.  It's the amount of soul destroying fun sucking aggression that is perpetrated by the also rans that believe a dirty move will get them to the podium.  It's the incessant rules lawyering, the constant need for new rules to keep up with cheating in the name of "ingenuity".

 

This series has always been The Wild Wild West, it's just that now the gun fighters are stepping over each other just to stand in line for their chance at the top. 

 

 

 

 

When @dogtired gets serious, he makes some very good points.

For many of us in the TAC group, we saw it as a way to contribute and help a great series improve. The incessant rules lawyering and picking apart of almost every single rule in the BCCR by some members looking for an "edge" in an grassroots amateur series that races for homemade trophies sure takes a lot of the joy and pride out of your efforts.

Has anyone noticed how most BoD & TAC members and our CEO have pretty much abandoned this forum?

Well said Steve, thanks for the input.

Edited by mcoppola
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54 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

That sounds like the real problem. This person doesnt feel like trying to win. They were used to cruising to Lemons victories.


Its not necessarily about winning, in the end of the day its about fun.  How fast is too fast before new teams stop joining?  I know that it was a big enough step for our team to start racing and get ourselves acclimatized to race pace (we still arent there really to run with top teams, but we hold our own at least now).  It may be a perception thing (is it actually reality?), but would my guys feel comfortable stepping into their first race with some of the current crop of fast cars?  Im not sure, but I would say its on the verge of being a "no".

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42 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

When @dogtired gets serious, he makes some very good points.

For many of us in the TAC group, we saw it as a way to contribute and help a great series improve. The incessant rules lawyering and picking apart of almost every single rule in the BCCR by some members looking for an "edge" in an grassroots amateur series that races for homemade trophies sure takes a lot of the joy and pride out of your efforts.

Has anyone noticed how most BoD & TAC members and our CEO have pretty much abandoned this forum?

Well said Steve, thanks for the input.

Then simplify the rules. No swaps, no aero, no free stuff. Make it a 100% stock car + safety gear. There, problem solved. Or continue on with your rulebook that allows lawyering.

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1 hour ago, mindspin311 said:

That sounds like the real problem. This person doesnt feel like trying to win. They were used to cruising to Lemons victories.

I think you are both missing my point.

 

I didnt say the driving has gotten worse or better.  Just more aggressive.

 

The aggression required to run at the front has gotten more intense over the past 3 or 4 years.

 

 

This is a good driver that has won a few champcar races as well (within the last few years). 

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1 hour ago, Snake said:

 

Disagree, I believe the driving has gotten better over the 4 years I've been racing with the series.  Yes, there are a couple of known cars to watch out for but overall, most everyone has gotten better and faster.   

aggressive is my point.  That has nothing to do with better or faster.

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15 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Then simplify the rules. No swaps, no aero, no free stuff. Make it a 100% stock car + safety gear. There, problem solved. Or continue on with your rulebook that allows lawyering.

 

If you do that it will eventually end up as a one chassis spec series and nobody outside of a few enthusiasts will care anymore. What most of us love about these raced is big fields and diversity.

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I think we are getting a little over dramatic in here now.    It's not that bad.  My thoughts are that we need to focus more on clipping the wings a little on runaway top cars (top lap times, not wins) and less focused on rules changes to bring mid cars up to the front.   Hence my petition for EC class if you want to run over 94 octane.    I never would have believed people would spend the money on race gas so they could run super agressive cams for power.   most team can't afford to run $8 gas and it's not in the spirit of the series

Edited by theblue
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High Compression ratio and boost are what require high octane, not big cams. Btw, the zero point mod that requires high octane the most is high compression, which is acheived by milling a head, a totally legal modification. 

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