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Bill Strong

2020 Petition Discusion

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FYI...

When I set up the google form for petition submission, I used the export to spreadsheet function to build the PDF that you see above.
When members tried to format their responses on the form, XML code was cut and pasted in the for that ended up breaking the spreadsheet. I have fought this for the past week.
Last night I discovered a feature in the form page that allowed me to manually view each form that you submitted. I did an audit and discovered with the help of the person who submitted it that I had missed one petition entry. It has now been added to the PDF download. There are now 190 pages with 69 Petitions. 

I want to apologize for this issue. 

Next year I will change the way that this is done so that this does not happen again.

 

http://champcar.org/mainweb/pdf/2020BCCRPetitions.pdf

You may vote on the petitions here.  This vote will let the BOD understand how you feel as a club on the issues. If you want to add more detail, please email the BOD at board@champcar.org and let them know how you feel. please reference the petition number in the email.
https://goo.gl/forms/rDBtoag5wmKBpHys1

 

And please keep the conversations civil. 

 

Again, sorry for the technical issues.

 

 

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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

They’re all crazy.   Wait let me read them first. 

Nah, just yours.....

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well, my reply letter will be shorter this year since I already have half of it done...

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15 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Frack... I forgot to add my free MR2 petition.

It already is....   #greenfont

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5 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Kinda torn on some of these "free" type petitions. The arguments are pretty good in support of them.

Every other Sprint/Endurance organization that I know of allows coolers for no penalty. Saves $$$ both in parts and race operating costs. 

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There has always been a group that does not want them. they think that adding reliability to some cars puts them at a disadvantage because that's how they can beat them. 
They may not need the advantage of saving money because they only do a race or two a season. But for the guys that do 5+ races, it's a huge saving.

If I could have used a large transmission oil cooler on my car with zero laps on the MR2, it would have saved me at least $6000 in 2016 and gained me 2 trophies. I was more concerned with the $$$ than the trophies. That also caused me to lose revenue form 1 missed race, and one race where I had to substitute the MR2 with the Opel, which again was lost revenue as only one from my teams wanted to race it.

I know I am not the only one that had that issue.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

There has always been a group that does not want them. they think that adding reliability to some cars puts them at a disadvantage because that's how they can beat them. 
They may not need the advantage of saving money because they only do a race or two a season. But for the guys that do 5+ races, it's a huge saving.

If I could have used a large transmission oil cooler on my car with zero laps on the MR2, it would have saved me at least $6000 in 2016 and gained me 2 trophies. I was more concerned with the $$$ than the trophies. That also caused me to lose revenue form 1 missed race, and one race where I had to substitute the MR2 with the Opel, which again was lost revenue as only one from my teams wanted to race it.

I know I am not the only one that had that issue.

 

 

 

Also a cooler does not solve every issue. Parts failure can still happen. Engines can still be overrevved, head-gaskets can still fail and detention can still kill an engine. Transimissons can still be abused ect. We did 7 races last year and none of them with Champ because while the entry fee was cheap and racing was good, I wasn't willing to put a $4000 engine on the line to win and need a rebuild after the race because there was no cooler. 

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Looks like the first twenty some petitions are just fixing blatant errors/mistakes in the rule book. Thanks for taking the time @Huggy

 

P.S. Petiton 18 page 49 has a typo and should read that the IS300 has a 2JZ-GE, 1JZs were not available in north america.

image.jpeg.d547c72e4a43c9d99b3374ff496f5261.jpeg

Edited by morganf
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9 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

There has always been a group that does not want them. they think that adding reliability to some cars puts them at a disadvantage because that's how they can beat them. 
They may not need the advantage of saving money because they only do a race or two a season. But for the guys that do 5+ races, it's a huge saving.

If I could have used a large transmission oil cooler on my car with zero laps on the MR2, it would have saved me at least $6000 in 2016 and gained me 2 trophies. I was more concerned with the $$$ than the trophies. That also caused me to lose revenue form 1 missed race, and one race where I had to substitute the MR2 with the Opel, which again was lost revenue as only one from my teams wanted to race it.

I know I am not the only one that had that issue.

Wasn't it your choice not to run a transmission cooler? I know you had more than enough points available.

 

You could have saved yourself $6000 and some lost revenue by choosing reliability over speed but you apparently chose the opposite. I think that one's completely on you.

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I thought I was an automotive minutiae dork.  @Huggy is my kinda people. He should do a documentary on vehicle platforms :) I particularly liked:

 

   Current results have not demonstrated that the Fiero has the reliability or speed to be
   competitive with its current VPI. In addition, as pointed out prominently on the forum,
   the chassis is extremely fuel limited.

 

:) I had almost forgotten that the Fiero was fuel limited...

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

There has always been a group that does not want them. they think that adding reliability to some cars puts them at a disadvantage because that's how they can beat them. 
They may not need the advantage of saving money because they only do a race or two a season. But for the guys that do 5+ races, it's a huge saving.

If I could have used a large transmission oil cooler on my car with zero laps on the MR2, it would have saved me at least $6000 in 2016 and gained me 2 trophies. I was more concerned with the $$$ than the trophies. That also caused me to lose revenue form 1 missed race, and one race where I had to substitute the MR2 with the Opel, which again was lost revenue as only one from my teams wanted to race it.

I know I am not the only one that had that issue.

 

 

Mr. Media:

1) You could have added the cooler if you needed it. Nobody stopped you, you chose not to run it. You decided to swap in an ungodly amount of power into your car and then complain after the fact that you did not "have enough points for a cooler". 

 

2) Why not run the stock engine and run as many coolers as you want? Oh yea, you wanted to swap in an ungodly powerful engine and then complain after the fact that you don't have free coolers. 

3) Teams that run 5+ races a year don't all bitch about not having enough free stuff. It's normally teams that squeak in with deflated values that were lobbied down, or teams that are running a 500 point car. If a car is valued at 500 points, its valued that high because it is a REALLY good car. It might have a few weaknesses, and if those are addressed it would then be better than a 500 point car. 

According to your logic, I should buy a Honda S2000. Run a 1 hour stint before running out of gas (13 gallons) and then petition that the car should get a 20 gallon tank. The reason the car is 500 points is because of that weakness. If it has a 20 gallon tank, it would be a 550 point car. 

So then I should level the field by giving all cars 20 gallons right? Then an E30 and an S2000 equal then, right? Wrong.......

 

There are other series that allow free everything, and they are an arms race. The things that differentiate this series and make it better are/were an attempt to keep it budget friendly, and single class racing. 

Just my $.02........rant over. 

Edited by red0
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24 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

There are other series that allow free everything, and they are an arms race. The things that differentiate this series and make it better are/were an attempt to keep it budget friendly, and single class racing. 

Just my $.02........rant over. 

 

As someone that is part of the "arms race" (run the BBY Mustangs in AER that Ran 1:31 at RA two weeks ago)

When we priced out the cost of the AER race for the Mustang and Champ race for the S2000, it was actually CHEAPER to run the Mustang. 

 

Also those who chose to put coolers on their cars will have Extra points to play with to add extra speed, Those who had the speed will stay just as fast with coolers.

Edited by the5

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Just now, the5 said:

 

As someone that is part of the "arms race" (run the BBY Mustangs in AER that Ran 1:31 at RA two weeks ago)

When we priced out the cost of the AER race for the Mustang and Champ race for the S2000, it was actually CHEAPER to run the Mustang. 

 

As someone who races cars that have $5,000 - $10,000 total build costs, I find the S2000 incredibly expensive and didn't really think it was appropriate for Champcar. The BOD had it added to the VPI list at 500 points though. That would certainly be a very expensive build and a motor that is not known for reliability. 

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1 hour ago, morganf said:

Looks like the first twenty some petitions are just fixing blatant errors/mistakes in the rule book. Thanks for taking the time @Huggy

 

P.S. Petiton 18 page 49 has a typo and should read that the IS300 has a 2JZ-GE, 1JZs were not available in north america.

image.jpeg.d547c72e4a43c9d99b3374ff496f5261.jpeg

 

You are correct, thanks!

 

theres also a typo in the Neon one, where I wrote Sohc but meant Dohc 

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8 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

As someone who races cars that have $5,000 - $10,000 total build costs, I find the S2000 incredibly expensive and didn't really think it was appropriate for Champcar. The BOD had it added to the VPI list at 500 points though. That would certainly be a very expensive build and a motor that is not known for reliability. 

Replacing retainers on the f20 with f22 version and a fresh tct?  What else is not reliable? 

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2 minutes ago, Hurljohn said:

Replacing retainers on the f20 with f22 version and a fresh tct?  What else is not reliable? 

Diff

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1 hour ago, tommytipover said:

I thought I was an automotive minutiae dork.  @Huggy is my kinda people. He should do a documentary on vehicle platforms :) I particularly liked:

 

   Current results have not demonstrated that the Fiero has the reliability or speed to be
   competitive with its current VPI. In addition, as pointed out prominently on the forum,
   the chassis is extremely fuel limited.

 

:) I had almost forgotten that the Fiero was fuel limited...

Re: petition #27:

My Fiero had very few mechanical issues (other than the self-inflicted ones) and enough speed to keep up with eastern teams at Laguna, and my total VPi was reduced from 497 points to 318 points with all the recent freebies. Reasonable lightest weight is about 7-10% higher than the very optimistic weight cited in this petition, and somehow the fact that '87-'88 Fieros came with the 11.9 gallon tank was missed. The part about being fuel limited is right though. :) 

 

Further VPi reduction will do little to solve the base issue. The speed needed to win a race while doing one hour stints on the allowed fuel would be a hazard.

Edited by mender

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4 minutes ago, Hurljohn said:

Replacing retainers on the f20 with f22 version and a fresh tct?  What else is not reliable? 

 

Regarding the motor, having peak power at 8k+ rpm and racing in a series with most races 12 - 24 hours makes for an unfavorable combo IMO. 

 

 

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