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When did I get value in the rulebook?


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No

 

 I have been following this carefully as it was a consideration on the next build. 

 

The 10 points is to assess value to  non-factory non-engine driven power steering, this is considered a performance enhancement.  We are allowed to delete P/S but not modify to another type of P/S

 

 

 If this perceived Loophole is exploited, prepare to lose your investment when it is properly patched. My .02

Edited by Team Infiniti
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12 hours ago, Black Magic said:

This year. Thought was to give some penalty to the small hp increase you get by going non hydro.

 

Why would there be a HP increase going non hydro?

 

The electric pump still requires energy to create fluid pressure.  It just does it via an electric motor which is robbing it's energy from the alternator instead of directly from a belt.

 

In theory, if you could recharge the battery "off peak", then in theory you could negate much of the power loss, but that's a bit outside the scope of what we're doing here.

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1 hour ago, SonsOfIrony said:

In theory, if you could recharge the battery "off peak", then in theory you could negate much of the power loss, but that's a bit outside the scope of what we're doing here.

So, that’s basically how the hydraulic pump works too (as I have recently been told). When you aren’t turning, it is just circulating fluid but draws almost no power, only loads the engine when turning, when you don’t need full power anyway.

 

Ever notice cars with noisy PS pump? Basically silent at idle and no steering input, but once you turn the wheel they start to howl. 

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Why would there be a HP increase going non hydro?

 

The electric pump still requires energy to create fluid pressure.  It just does it via an electric motor which is robbing it's energy from the alternator instead of directly from a belt.

 

In theory, if you could recharge the battery "off peak", then in theory you could negate much of the power loss, but that's a bit outside the scope of what we're doing here.

 

This. Whoever wrote this ruling seems to fail at understanding very basic physics.  The energy to run (any sort of) power steering motor/pump doesn't come from thin air, converting to an electric motor just changes the source of the energy (kindof), from a belt driven PS pump to a belt driven alternator (both still driven by the crankshaft). In addition, it's pretty common knowledge that hydraulics/fluid power is actually more efficient and power dense than electric motors. There's a reason that hydraulic is still the most common method of providing power steering, substituted by electric motors mostly for packaging reasons. 

 

Fixed displacement hydraulic pumps are always pushing fluid. In the case of automotive power steering, the only power draw of the PS system while not turning is the friction losses of pumping fluid through the hoses, to the rack and back to tank, which is not a whole lot. I believe electric power assist also draws current all the time as well ( it clearly does not shut off, it needs to be able to quickly react to input).

My last point - pure electric PS systems are very problematic and DO NOT handle heat well with no built in method to transfer heat out of the system like hydraulic PS. Perhaps Tyler Pedersen could chime in regarding how well my steering worked in the heat at the NCM championship, steering not only with no assist (due to the controller shutting down the motor as a result of overtemp condition) but also through an extra gearbox is, let's say, a little bit of a workout.

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5 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

This. Whoever wrote this ruling seems to fail at understanding very basic physics.  The energy to run (any sort of) power steering motor/pump doesn't come from thin air, converting to an electric motor just changes the source of the energy (kindof), from a belt driven PS pump to a belt driven alternator (both still driven by the crankshaft). In addition, it's pretty common knowledge that hydraulics/fluid power is actually more efficient and power dense than electric motors. There's a reason that hydraulic is still the most common method of providing power steering, substituted by electric motors mostly for packaging reasons. 

 

Fixed displacement hydraulic pumps are always pushing fluid. In the case of automotive power steering, the only power draw of the PS system while not turning is the friction losses of pumping fluid through the hoses, to the rack and back to tank, which is not a whole lot. I believe electric power assist also draws current all the time as well ( it clearly does not shut off, it needs to be able to quickly react to input).

My last point - pure electric PS systems are very problematic and DO NOT handle heat well with no built in method to transfer heat out of the system like hydraulic PS. Perhaps Tyler Pedersen could chime in regarding how well my steering worked in the heat at the NCM championship, steering not only with no assist (due to the controller shutting down the motor as a result of overtemp condition) but also through an extra gearbox is, let's say, a little bit of a workout.

 

I drove Paul's Ecripse at Gingerman without power steering. It was awful. Straight up a workout 100% of the time. I told Paul I would not get back in the car without some sort of steering assist. Fast forward to one of the hottest races of 2018. Drove the Ecripse with power steering. It was much better until it was so hot that the power steering would go out. When you turned in you were not sure how far you were going to have to turn the wheel or work the wheel. 

 

5 hours ago, 55mini said:

Yeah but Tyler could always use a workout.

 

 

Funny guy :)

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17 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

No

 

 I have been following this carefully as it was a consideration on the next build. 

 

The 10 points is to assess value to  non-factory non-engine driven power steering, this is considered a performance enhancement.  We are allowed to delete P/S but not modify to another type of P/S

 

 

 If this perceived Loophole is exploited, prepare to lose your investment when it is properly patched. My .02

 

That is not whats written in the rules.

 

it CLEARLY says Electric-Hydro steering 10 points.

 

It does NOT say Electric steering = XX points

it does NOT say "non stock power steering component" = XX points

it does NOT say "non factory non engine driven steering" = XX points

 

 

in fact, it DOES say " Power steering components = 0 points", which is, pretty plain to see, power steering components that are not an "electric-hydro conversion" are zero points.

 

Upgrading power steering to non factory hydraulic = 0 points

Upgrading to a better rack = 0 points

Upgrading from recirc ball to a rack = 0 points

Changing steering columns to a power column, or to a different column, etc = 0 points

Adding electric power assist = 0 points

 

 

Edited by Huggy
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22 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

That is not whats written in the rules.

 

it CLEARLY says Electric-Hydro steering 10 points.

 

It does NOT say Electric steering = XX points

it does NOT say "non stock power steering component" = XX points

it does NOT say "non factory non engine driven steering" = XX points

 

 

in fact, it DOES say " Power steering components = 0 points", which is, pretty plain to see, power steering components that are not an "electric-hydro conversion" are zero points.

 

Upgrading power steering to non factory hydraulic = 0 points

Upgrading to a better rack = 0 points

Upgrading from recirc ball to a rack = 0 points

Changing steering columns to a power column, or to a different column, etc = 0 points

Adding electric power assist = 0 points

 

 

Only POWER steering components are 0 points, so you couldn't make upgrades (rack, etc) on a non-power steering system. Otherwise I agree with your interpretation. Unfortunately the rules writers/enforcers probably think we're being too literal, hopefully the TAC can help.

 

8 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

After all that, why WOULD anyone install electric power steering?

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38 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Only POWER steering components are 0 points, so you couldn't make upgrades (rack, etc) on a non-power steering system. Otherwise I agree with your interpretation. Unfortunately the rules writers/enforcers probably think we're being too literal, hopefully the TAC can help.

 

After all that, why WOULD anyone install electric power steering?

 

I would think you could still add a power steering system to a non power steering car.

 

Said "added" power steering may or may not be functional

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3 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

That is not whats written in the rules.

 

it CLEARLY says Electric-Hydro steering 10 points.

 

It does NOT say Electric steering = XX points

it does NOT say "non stock power steering component" = XX points

it does NOT say "non factory non engine driven steering" = XX points

 

 

in fact, it DOES say " Power steering components = 0 points", which is, pretty plain to see, power steering components that are not an "electric-hydro conversion" are zero points.

 

Upgrading power steering to non factory hydraulic = 0 points

Upgrading to a better rack = 0 points

Upgrading from recirc ball to a rack = 0 points

Changing steering columns to a power column, or to a different column, etc = 0 points

Adding electric power assist = 0 points

It says ‘electro-hydro steering conversion’. Conversion means a change from some previous form... which means that any car running stock equipment is fine. I don’t know how paul’s system works, but it sounds like you are right, any purely electric system is zero points. 

 

That entire section, as far as I know, is for non-stock parts. It should say so in the 4.3.2 section heading, and then each line item wouldn’t need to say “non-OE”. 

Edited by enginerd
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5 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

After all that, why WOULD anyone install electric power steering?

 

I did it because my car was extensively modified to remove power steering - including pulling the shuttle valve out of my steering rack and my spare steering rack, scrapping all the PS components, bolting other things in the holes/locations where PS components would be installed, etc. It isn't easy to get power steering stuff (or really much of anything) for a 1G DSM (though it could be done, i'm sure).  I figured it would be easier to add EPAS than install stock PS, and I'd say that was true. I also had read/heard about EPAS and wanted to give it a try, being the inquisitive engineer that I am. I did not know what my experience would be using it in endurance road racing, but given what it's been I would not recommend it.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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As a note, it doesn't result in horsepower gains.  If anything, it only reduces parasitic losses.  Any reduction is very small.  Not worthy of 10 points, in our opinion.  If you're looking for speed gains, you'd be better off taping the gaps in your bodywork than you would converting to electro-hydraulic power steering.

 

We converted our cars to electro-hydraulic because of the known issue with the Boxster power steering.  The stock system boils over very easily and is not sufficient for endurance racing, let alone sprint racing.  In our car, it is just to fix a flaw and allow us to race it.

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29 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

As a note, it doesn't result in horsepower gains.  If anything, it only reduces parasitic losses.  Any reduction is very small.  Not worthy of 10 points, in our opinion.  If you're looking for speed gains, you'd be better off taping the gaps in your bodywork than you would converting to electro-hydraulic power steering.

 

We converted our cars to electro-hydraulic because of the known issue with the Boxster power steering.  The stock system boils over very easily and is not sufficient for endurance racing, let alone sprint racing.  In our car, it is just to fix a flaw and allow us to race it.

 

Which system did you use, and were there specs available for it? (Peak and idle current draw, etc)

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15 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

Which system did you use, and were there specs available for it? (Peak and idle current draw, etc)

 

Our lead tech designed it and actually sells the system for other Porsches.  I'll see if I can get the specs on the pump.  I know that it is pretty stout.

 

I believe that Mini Coopers use an electro-hydraulic power steering pump.  That might be an option for you.

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13 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

 

After all that, why WOULD anyone install electric power steering?

 

Cost

 

Try finding a good OEM PS pump for a 240SX.  One that isn't a garbage A1 cardone reman.  We ran no power steering for 2 years because finding a good pump would cost more than 2 races worth of tires.

 

The Volvo electric over hydraulic system we installed over the winter uses all factory components except the pump, and the pumps are cheap, plentiful, and easy to install/wire.

 

There really isn't a performance gain over the factory system since the pump runs any time The engine runs.  The biggest benefit for us is we won't have to deal with rental drivers whining about the heavy steering in tight corners.

 

We don't know for sure if it'll stand up to endurance duty yet, but I got 2 pumps for $35 each with pigtails, and I never gutted the spool valve out of our spare rack so we just swapped that in.

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So this is interesting.. I'll admit I'm somewhat out of the loop and try to only get my nose in the rules enough to figure out what affects me or how to build my car, but after talking to Mike Chisek:

-This change was suggested by the head of tech and one other tech inspector

-BoD supposedly voted on it but I polled a few BoD members and neither recalled this change/addition 

-I was told the 2019 rules were released with changes highlighted in red, then Bill reported to me they were in fact not, because 'color blind people would see a blank page'

-This was not a TAC proposed rule

-This was supposedly not a 'stealth' change, but not being discussed, proposed as a petition, or highlighted in the change log of the rules release, only finding it randomly while reading the rules, how am I to interpret otherwise?

-The rationale for this rule is, i'll say, very weak with little to no empirical backing on the part of champcar, I was more or less just told that 'everyone knows that this would gain you horsepower, and that's the only reason anyone would do it'
-I was also told 'Electric power steering cannot be considered driver comfort because the car already had power steering'. Does this mean my racing seat cannot be considered driver comfort?

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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