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Wink

Definition of an Air Dam

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*No big deal, just a spare engine I have strapped to my trailer.  I mean.... everyone has a spare engine just in case right??!!😉

Edited by thewheelerZ
Insert sarcasm

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The last few year we have broken a lot of parts. we have a 8 hr drive to the race so we have learned to bring ever part that may break.   

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On 5/8/2019 at 10:33 AM, Wink said:

I like this definition.. Food for thought 

 

"Vertical front air dam (5º tolerance) that follows or extends beneath the outermost edge of the front and side bodywork/fascia."

On 5/8/2019 at 10:53 AM, enginerd said:

What about an air dam angled at 7degrees from vertical?

 

And what if it extended from just inside the outermost edge?

 

Very specific definitions invite lawyers and ashats to skirt them on technicalities. 

 

I was wondering about the angle as well, common sense would tell me if you go past 12" (like the splitter rule) you would be in hot water for obvious reasons. My question is are we allowed any reasonable rake (again less than 12" of extension)?

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18 hours ago, Keith said:

 

I was wondering about the angle as well, common sense would tell me if you go past 12" (like the splitter rule) you would be in hot water for obvious reasons. My question is are we allowed any reasonable rake (again less than 12" of extension)?

Thats an interesting point and a valid one.  A splitter is typically defined here as only a strict horizontal element that extends forward of the stock bumper location by at most 12".  I would assume tech would hit you for a materials point after the rake left the vertical plane of the stock front facia?  I believe extra points were assigned at Daytona/Charlotte for a team that had a custom fiberglass front  assembly made?  Might be more along the lines of your question.

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3 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

Thats an interesting point and a valid one.  A splitter is typically defined here as only a strict horizontal element that extends forward of the stock bumper location by at most 12".  I would assume tech would hit you for a materials point after the rake left the vertical plane of the stock front facia?  I believe extra points were assigned at Daytona/Charlotte for a team that had a custom fiberglass front  assembly made?  Might be more along the lines of your question.

 

If only we knew how many points. 

 

Shame there's no interconnected network of computers available to store said data, and make it accessable by those meant to be policing competitors.....

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My airdam definetly has some horizontal vector to it.  If you looked straight down at the front of the car, it probably sticks out 1 to 1.5 inches at the bottom versus the top.

 

That is just how it lays against the car.  Not sure how difficult it would be to make it perfectly flat since it curves around the sides of the front end.

 

Nobody has called me out on it, because it is obvious that I'm not trying to do anything other than have an airdam on the car.

 

Sometimes we can rules lawyer stuff that is not necessary...  if it smells and feels like poop, I don't need to eat it to tell it's poop.  

 

If it looks like an airdam, it's an airdam.

 

An airdam can be functional by itself, but it is meant to help dam the air to allow the splitter to work.  If your splitter needs a dam to keep the air seperated to function correctly......  well, I'd call that an airdam.

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44 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

My airdam definetly has some horizontal vector to it.  If you looked straight down at the front of the car, it probably sticks out 1 to 1.5 inches at the bottom versus the top.

 

That is just how it lays against the car.  Not sure how difficult it would be to make it perfectly flat since it curves around the sides of the front end.

 

Nobody has called me out on it, because it is obvious that I'm not trying to do anything other than have an airdam on the car.

 

Sometimes we can rules lawyer stuff that is not necessary...  if it smells and feels like poop, I don't need to eat it to tell it's poop.  

 

If it looks like an airdam, it's an airdam.

 

An airdam can be functional by itself, but it is meant to help dam the air to allow the splitter to work.  If your splitter needs a dam to keep the air seperated to function correctly......  well, I'd call that an airdam.

I hear ya for sure but I'm building an air dam on a car that has 15 points to give and it sticks out 1-2 inches. I just don't want the rest of my team to taste the poop and think I prepared it for them. I think a quick dimension constraint definition for each "aero" device would be helpful but not totally necessary. Either you look like a hero to your team or you cost them a lap trying to push the envelope. It won't matter too much cause our drivers are slow but the car is reliable enough for a top ten every time. How's that for arguing with yourself.

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Funny how the guys who have points to play with are all too happy to tell the ones that dont, "Sucks to suck"

 

There is no such thing as a splitter that works without an "air dam" per chump definitions.  Doesnt exist - vapor ware.  A splitter MUST have something horizontal behind its upper surface, otherwise it doesnt work.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Funny how the guys who have points to play with are all too happy to tell the ones that dont, "Sucks to suck"

Isn't the whole point of the VPI that cars with higher starting point values don't get to add as much stuff.  What am I missing here?  

 

Like my dad used to say when I wanted sympathy as a little fella.  "I feel for ya,  I just can't quite reach ya."   In today's terms he would have probably told me to suck it up buttercup.

 

I mean we'd like to put a set of cams in our ecotech and run a different intake or whatever but we are out of points.   What kind of crap is that?  Those things shouldn't be points its just dumb.

 

I would never tell you "sucks to suck"  You've won too many races and clearly don't suck.   

 

Please take all of the above with at least 2 or 3 grains of salt.  Its all just conversation in the paddock.   

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

A splitter MUST have something horizontal behind its upper surface, otherwise it doesnt work.

 

I think you mean vertical, and that vertical item would be the front bumper?

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

 

There is no such thing as a splitter that works without an "air dam" per chump definitions.  Doesnt exist - vapor ware.  A splitter MUST have something horizontal behind its upper surface, otherwise it doesnt work.

 

 

 

Example #2, and this is just what its in my garage. I'm sure we can find more examples of splitters being attached directly to bumpers.  You sitting here repeating claims don't actual make them facts.  

20190515_082640.jpg

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

Funny how the guys who have points to play with are all too happy to tell the ones that dont, "Sucks to suck"

 

There is no such thing as a splitter that works without an "air dam" per chump definitions.  Doesnt exist - vapor ware.  A splitter MUST have something horizontal behind its upper surface, otherwise it doesnt work.

 

 

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but the point of my post was that we don't need these complicated geometric guidelines to determine if something is a splitter or an airdam.

 

I would say that if you can get away with an inch or 2 of material, it probably doesn't constitute an airdam.  If it looks and acts like an airdam, it's an airdam.  If it is used for mounting a splitter, it isn't an airdam.

 

That being said, I have made the choice to run only an airdam and not use my points on the splitter.

Edited by wvumtnbkr

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2 hours ago, Huggy said:

Funny how the guys who have points to play with are all too happy to tell the ones that dont, "Sucks to suck"

 

There is no such thing as a splitter that works without an "air dam" per chump definitions.  Doesnt exist - vapor ware.  A splitter MUST have something horizontal behind its upper surface, otherwise it doesnt work.

 

 

 

You mean like how the vast majority of the fuel rich say to the fuel lean:

 

Just drive faster to make up for the extra stops, it is easy - but we are already no longer setting fast laps.

Just drive slower to conserve fuel - but isn't this a race?

It has been that way since the start of the series so we can't change it now - but numerous other things have changed recently that were in place since the start of the series.

Let's race on the track, not in the pits - but the fuel lean are forced to racing in the pits as well as the track.

The extra stop is no big deal - but isn't that like taking penalty laps?

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1 hour ago, Snake said:

 

Example #2, and this is just what its in my garage. I'm sure we can find more examples of splitters being attached directly to bumpers.  You sitting here repeating claims don't actual make them facts.  

*picture of fancy car deleted*

 

You posting repeated photos of your fancy cars doesn't make any point at all.  A SRT-whatever isnt a chump car.  That bumper is acting as an air-dam in that case, and it happens, specifically for your viper, to be very close to the ground to be effective.  Jack that car up so its 4+ inches off the ground and the splitter won't be doing jack.

 

 

 

 

The rage inducing part of this is champcar's flip flop direction.   I said way back when - dont make aero so cheap.  They said - tuff - aero is cheap.

 

I went and developed, at quite a bit of time and effort, a working aero package.  Im happy with it.  The car has been unchanged, save routine maintenance or repairs, for 2+ years.

 

Then they go and say decide, secretly, ah, actually, we are going to raise aero prices now.  

 

 

frack, I decided to take a break from this forum because this issue is giving me heart palpitations. Now I have gone and stirred up the hornets nest again.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

You posting repeated photos of your fancy cars doesn't make any point at all.  A SRT-whatever isnt a chump car.  That bumper is acting as an air-dam in that case, and it happens, specifically for your viper, to be very close to the ground to be effective.  Jack that car up so its 4+ inches off the ground and the splitter won't be doing jack.

 

 

 

 

The rage inducing part of this is champcar's flip flop direction.   I said way back when - dont make aero so cheap.  They said - tuff - aero is cheap.

 

I went and developed, at quite a bit of time and effort, a working aero package.  Im happy with it.  The car has been unchanged, save routine maintenance or repairs, for 2+ years.

 

Then they go and say decide, secretly, ah, actually, we are going to raise aero prices now.  

 

 

frack, I decided to take a break from this forum because this issue is giving me heart palpitations. Now I have gone and stirred up the hornets nest again.

 

 

 

2 photos of different cars of impossible splitters is hardly repetitive but go ahead and attack what you disproves your opinions.  

 

I completely understand and support you being upset of the flip flop rules.   NOBODY likes that.   But, just because they changed doesn't make the new rules wrong, you just don't like that they were changed without warning.  1000% rightfully so.   But, that doesn't make the new rule interpretation wrong,.  

 

Also, I heard ZERO complaints from you when the swap rules were "secretly" changed without notice allowing you to run a more powerful engine.  Where was the outrage for that rule change?

Edited by Snake
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18 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

You posting repeated photos of your fancy cars doesn't make any point at all.  A SRT-whatever isnt a chump car.  That bumper is acting as an air-dam in that case, and it happens,

Just now realizing a pignose 240 could probably do it with the factory lip. Is the mini/S2000 one effective? not as much, but it is only 10points.

FrontSplitterPattern002.jpg

VV This one should be questionable but with no rules definitions that could be an airdam in there.

Related image

Image result for splitter car

s2000_air_splitter10.jpg

Edited by morganf
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 The answers to all this is written in black and white on page 1 . 

  We have  teams that have been given points this way from 2017 we have teams that were not . Aero limits were pushed definitions and limitations had to be made and were . Everyone is being given the same points for every addition. 

  We have had teams come on here and state we add points to their cars " no " we only count them . If you do not want the points do not add the stuff or take it off . 

  

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55 minutes ago, Snake said:

Where was the outrage for that rule change?

 

Plain to see here on the forum.  I was loudly against that one also.

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42 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

 The answers to all this is written in black and white on page 1 . 

  We have  teams that have been given points this way from 2017 we have teams that were not . Aero limits were pushed definitions and limitations had to be made and were . Everyone is being given the same points for every addition. 

  We have had teams come on here and state we add points to their cars " no " we only count them . If you do not want the points do not add the stuff or take it off . 

  

 

Can you please get them written in black, white, red, rainbow, any color in the rule book

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I have suggested a clarification to the rules for 2020 on the height of the air dam.   It's a valid complaint.  

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because people can't just build a normal and reasonable splitter and air dam combo... they have to engineer a whole new nose to the car etc.   the goal of the series is to keep costs down so this discourages it.

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3 hours ago, The Aero Man said:

Why can't we just say 10 pts for any aero in front of the front axle?

Because people that just want a airdam shouldn't pay as much as those that want an airdam and splitter.

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45 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Because people that just want a airdam shouldn't pay as much as those that want an airdam and splitter.

It is for this reason that I liked the old sq. ft. material rule and was upset when it was replaced by fixed values. Big splitter and air dam? Big points. Little air dam? Little points. 

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