Jump to content

Coil Over Kits and Top Hats


Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

Quick question for Ya'll Non-Miata owners:

 

When/if you run coil overs on your type of vehicle, are you able to run the stock/OEM/came with that year top hats? or do you have to run specific top hats for the coil over kit?

 

Thanks!

 

By top hat do you mean the strut top, where you would adjust camber on most cars?

 

Or do you mean just a ring that goes in between the top of the spring and the oem strut top (to center the spring)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
13 hours ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

Quick question for Ya'll Non-Miata owners:

 

When/if you run coil overs on your type of vehicle, are you able to run the stock/OEM/came with that year top hats? or do you have to run specific top hats for the coil over kit?

  

Thanks!

 

I would pick a coil over that is meant to be used on my make/model/year car, or modify it to do so within the rules. If I had to run top hats for a different make/mode/year I would use the following rule to claim them. 

 

Suspension component (not otherwise listed in this table), non-OE: 10 pts per corner

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

By top hat do you mean the strut top, where you would adjust camber on most cars?

 

Or do you mean just a ring that goes in between the top of the spring and the oem strut top (to center the spring)?

Yea the strut top, or on a miata, its the damper top and spring seat.  I am curious as to what front strut cars that didnt have an integrated spring over the damper do.  I would have to imagine that an spring seat integrated into the top strut mount is required that is not OEM - Such as a fox mustang where the spring is between the LCA and the subframe.  That MUST require some sort of a spring seat integrated into a top hot that isnt OEM

Edited by Alchemy Autosport
added Fox inquiry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

Yea the strut top, or on a miata, its the damper top and spring seat.  I am curious as to what front strut cars that didnt have an integrated spring over the damper do.  I would have to imagine that an spring seat integrated into the top strut mount is required that is not OEM.

Just run Penskes 

 

Until those are outlawed

Edited by Wink
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Wink said:

Just run Penskes 

 

Until those are outlawed

Do Penskes use a stock top?  Does what comes with the Penskes suffice and is it included in the points of the coilovers?

 

Also, won't be outlawed.  I brought that up, along with RE71s, at a recent Board meeting and there's no desire to ban particular products from the series.  It died right away and we moved on.  

Edited by Jer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Jer said:

Do Penskes use a stock top?  Does what comes with the Penskes suffice and is it included in the points of the coilovers?

 

Also, won't be outlawed.  I brought that up, along with RE71s, at a recent Board meeting and there's no desire to ban particular products from the series.  It died right away and we moved on.  

I don’t think they should be outlawed.  Now if there should be some points involved beyond the coilover points is a discussion that should probably take place.      

 

Just a thought 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, JDChristianson said:

I don’t think they should be outlawed.  Now if there should be some points involved beyond the coilover points is a discussion that should probably take place.      

 

Just a thought 

I'm just not sure.  My thought is a coilover is different from stock and get points.  a top to make it work should be part of that cost.  But I'm not tech and have not even seen shock and top in question.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

Yea the strut top, or on a miata, its the damper top and spring seat.  I am curious as to what front strut cars that didnt have an integrated spring over the damper do.  I would have to imagine that an spring seat integrated into the top strut mount is required that is not OEM - Such as a fox mustang where the spring is between the LCA and the subframe.  That MUST require some sort of a spring seat integrated into a top hot that isnt OEM

 

Breaking it into classes, some guys run "coil over kits" which are just threaded adjusters for the stock spring location. This is sometimes done with stockish appearing springs, to get around the spring OD rules (for zero point springs). I would assume most cars to do this, as it is easiest. 

 

Next would be a damper that allows a spring to be mounted in a non oe place, which i would be a little afraid of in a racing application. Those mounts are built for shock loads, not total wheel loads. Also the challenge of 2x costing the shock hurts this application, vs the fixed vpi\ cost doesn't matter allowance for coil over (sleeve) kits.

 

Third would be integrated adjustable mounts on a strut\shock that mimics oem spring location. For most cars i would doubt 2x would allow this. Don't think many people work with this setup.

 

Given how simple shock struts are, and the fact that the body dictates the bolt pattern (the strut nut in the middle is just a single hole), i would be surprised any kit would use something besides the oe mount. Is the shock nut\strut shaft OD at the top too big? Impossible to drill out the stock mount or use a stepped adapter to get the shaft size different? Use spacers? Is the exposed shaft\eye to eye wrong? 

 

I could see the strut hat being a factor in lowering the car beyond what the factory allowed, since most of us run put of compression travel. However i don't think any of us have been allowed to change this out to further lower our cars for zero points in the past.

Edited by Black Magic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FYI, our team is moving to the new Spec Miata Penskes. I don't know yet if I'll get them in time for Watkins Glen, but I'll have them on for the VIR 24. They are a non-adjustable Penske shock within the 2x limit for shocks. List price is actually cheaper than the old Spec Miata Bilsteins and use the same coil-over kit. Total cost in Champcar for us: "Springs, non-OE coil springs (including ‘coil-over’ kit): 10 pts per corner". They use the NB (99-05) Miata top mount which will be an a value-add for 90-97 Miatas.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

They HAVE TO use the NB (99-05) Miata top mount which will be an a value-add for 90-97 Miatas.

 

So in my mind, to run the Penske Spec Miata kit, which is legal, the top hat would be included. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Wink said:

 

So in my mind, to run the Penske Spec Miata kit, which is legal, the top hat would be included. 

 

No. "Required Parts" are ONLY allowed by Champcar rules in the sections for engine swaps. The NB top hat is a performance upgrade to the older NA models. It increases available shock travel length.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, enginerd said:

No way Jose. The damper itself may be 0 points, but anything else you add won’t be.

Ok.  not arguing, and no dog in this fight...for now.  Maybe next year I'll go Penske.  Right now I need a new clutch and an LSD diff.  $$

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, 11 Tenths Jay said:

That seems logical to me too. It's silly to not include mounting hardware in the 2x rule just because it's sold seperately

 

We're not talking nuts and bolts here. We're talking a suspension component from a different car. At best it's "Offset bushings: 5 pts/corner" because it contains a bushing and is specifically and purposefully offset from the OE location of the older cars.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

 

We're not talking nuts and bolts here. We're talking a suspension component from a different car. At best it's "Offset bushings: 5 pts/corner" because it contains a bushing and is specifically and purposefully offset from the OE location of the older cars.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think there should be a different interpretation, especially since I have a '92 Miata. 🙂

 

Does it matter if the top hat happens to come from a different year car? If the Penske shocks required a unique top hat that was different than any top hat used on a Miata and it came with the shock when you purchased it, would there be any debate?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The intent of the shock rule was “you get to upgrade the OE dampers that break as soon as you hit the turn 1 curbing”. You do not get to redo your front end (for 0 points) just because the parts come as part of a kit that includes a cheap enough damper.

Edited by enginerd
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, 11 Tenths Jay said:

 

Does it matter if the top hat happens to come from a different year car entirely different chassis ?

 

Remember this isn't a 92 vs 93 thing....the part in question came from an entirely different chassis\car. We treat common chassis as a  single car now (NA miata) which is already a gift in some ways. 

 

Just wanted to clarify for people reading that we are not looking for date codes on parts....but put the same chassis parts like NA miata parts on a NA, NB on a NB, etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...