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Red Cow #2 vs Keltron #531 - Instant Karma

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The best devil’s advocate I can come up with for the yellow prelude. Joyous fist pump for finally pulling the bmw up the hill and then torque steer due to the massive power and self inflicted pit maneuver. “Green font” 

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Couldn't add any more to what has been said about the incident, come on there is no place for that in this or any racing series.  But has anyone else noticed the understeer in the BMW?  I mean the tires start talking before the turn, like they know they are about to be abused and start crying early.  Reminded me of some pigs I saw one time that would go through an electric fence and they knew their ass was about to be shocked but went through it anyway but they would start squealing before they got there.  And when the tires really start squalling on this BMW, the driver just puts in more input and the car doesn't respond but he does it anyway.  I get it, that blue armco is scary, I am sure he was saying turn mf, turn.  I would be curious what tire, set up, and what the tires looked like afterward.  Just found that interesting.

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9 hours ago, flytime said:

I'll check, may have video of this incident as it happened right in front of me.  I was driving 918 Visceral Porsche.  I don't know if the camera was still running. 

If it is the incident it was 3 wide into T6.  A  Black EC BMW on the inside, one of the Cayman Porsches in the middle and the Maxima on the out side.  

 

Yes thats the one. There was no more damage than paint rubbed but it felt very interesting in the car! 

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10 hours ago, Jer said:

I was in Bio 1 during this stint, and had a couple great battles later with the #2 Red Cow.  He raced me clean and HARD but clean.  I freaking loved it.  My hat was off to him and the 81 Honda before it crapped out.  Lots of fun.  In the video I see a lot of race craft from the camera car, cheating in a bit to not put the Prelude in a position to wreck them both.  I also see a lot of overreacting and overdriving from the soon to be wrecked Prelude.  100% fault lies with the Prelude driver IMHO as a racer.  I look forward to racing Red Cow in the future.  

 

I understand that this post is made by a competitor, and not a board member but is it safe to say that the BOD and/or Mike are looking into this situation?

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11 hours ago, Burningham said:

Couldn't add any more to what has been said about the incident, come on there is no place for that in this or any racing series.  But has anyone else noticed the understeer in the BMW?  I mean the tires start talking before the turn, like they know they are about to be abused and start crying early.  Reminded me of some pigs I saw one time that would go through an electric fence and they knew their ass was about to be shocked but went through it anyway but they would start squealing before they got there.  And when the tires really start squalling on this BMW, the driver just puts in more input and the car doesn't respond but he does it anyway.  I get it, that blue armco is scary, I am sure he was saying turn mf, turn.  I would be curious what tire, set up, and what the tires looked like afterward.  Just found that interesting.

We run 225/45/15 RS4s and  we used one set for all weekend. The tires looked  new after the race and I am not kidding. They will be raced again. Also, we run no aero other than a duct tape rear spoiler. We have considered adding a splitter but could not figure it out on time, hopefully for a next race. The car understeers a bit but with trail-braking it is manageable.

Regarding the suspension setup, we use hockey sticks to adjust front wheel toe, "trained" eye for the rears. The chassis is also a bit twisted. Here  is s link to our facebook page, you can see the build process. (4500' of welding wire, 20 sq' of sheet metal went into this chassis).

 

Edited by pj3

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@Racer28173 I dont disagree with what you are saying, but I do think theres a bit of armchair quarterbacking in what you are saying.  Nigel seems to be driving pretty calmly and wasnt being SUPER aggressive trying to slam the door on the prelude.  He let him by in T9 with plenty of room only to watch him stuff his exit onto the front straight behind the Vette.  Realistically, how many times would you watch that happen before saying to yourself, Im not waiting behind this guy anymore, hes going to have to get by me if he wants it.

 

Also, how far into the race is this?  There may be even more "context video" from prior to where we pick it up in the long video.  Im pretty sure those cars took off and ran a number of laps in totally clean air before starting to lap slower cars.

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59 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

I understand that this post is made by a competitor, and not a board member but is it safe to say that the BOD and/or Mike are looking into this situation?

I do not know, but I will inquire.  The driver was so red misted he could have killed someone.  Road rage on the track is dangerous.  I'm saying as a Board member AND as a competitor.  

 

Edit for full disclosure: I've been red misted on the track, but never to the degree that I made a move like that.  There was a hatchback wagon in the first stint Sunday making multiple moves to block me with no traffic in front of him.  I'm pretty sure I gave him the one finger salute when I finally cleanly dispatched him, but I never considered wrecking him or driving that erratically.  

Edited by Jer
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11 hours ago, Burningham said:

Couldn't add any more to what has been said about the incident, come on there is no place for that in this or any racing series.  But has anyone else noticed the understeer in the BMW?  I mean the tires start talking before the turn, like they know they are about to be abused and start crying early.  Reminded me of some pigs I saw one time that would go through an electric fence and they knew their ass was about to be shocked but went through it anyway but they would start squealing before they got there.  And when the tires really start squalling on this BMW, the driver just puts in more input and the car doesn't respond but he does it anyway.  I get it, that blue armco is scary, I am sure he was saying turn mf, turn.  I would be curious what tire, set up, and what the tires looked like afterward.  Just found that interesting.

 

I noticed.......
 

that understeer looked miserable to drive 

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I keep seeing people talking about the camera car blocking. Full disclosure, I did't watch all 12min, but i watched a lot.

 

I saw judicious use of trackout resulting in a corner exit line that didn't leave an easy choice for a passing car on which way to go.

 

I wouldn't call that blocking. That's running a wide car and not just handing a position to a competitor. Choosing to make them work for it is racing. So is letting somebody go for a strategic reason. It's all part of it. 

 

I didn't see the kind of multiple moves kind of thing you'd hear them call blocking on an indy car broadcast or anything. (reminder: didn't watch every second. not going to.) If the camera car was exiting corners and then darting around everywhere the Honda tried to go, then that's a cut and dried blocking situation. 

 

Saw somebody in this conversation bemoaning using slower cars as a pick in endurance racing. Whaaaaat???? I'm always going to stuff guys i'm racing behind slower cars in traffic and I hope they'll try to do that to me. That's the good stuff!

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The car is actually quite easy to drive. From a previous response: 

 

We run 225/45/15 RS4s and  we used one set for all weekend. The tires looked  new after the race and I am not kidding. (Glen is so easy on tires).  They will be raced again. We run no aero other than a duct tape rear spoiler. We have considered adding a splitter but could not figure it out on time, hopefully for a next race. The car understeers a bit but with trail-braking it is manageable.

Regarding the suspension setup, we use hockey sticks to adjust front wheel toe, "trained" eye for the rears. The chassis is also a bit twisted. 

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25 minutes ago, bendawson3 said:

Saw somebody in this conversation bemoaning using slower cars as a pick in endurance racing. Whaaaaat???? I'm always going to stuff guys i'm racing behind slower cars in traffic and I hope they'll try to do that to me. That's the good stuff!

 

Seriously, that's almost my favorite part of champcar.  My other favorite part is not having abs and using a maneuver I like to call the octopus...but that story is for another day.

 

I see some hard racing, and a yellow car with red eyes.  That wall looked like it hurt.

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Adding insult to injury, as was said in the drivers meeting, the owner of the yellow car is probably about to receive a bill in the mail for that section of armco!  Ufff....

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Hi All,

 

Apologies for the long text here.

 

Nigel here from Red Cow(Camera car). Just signed up to the forum moments ago as I was just recently made aware of this being posted on the champcar forum so decided I should probably comment on the whole incident. I think our team captain put it up there to show everyone what “actually” happened from the view of our car out there in the unfortunate incident. This was probably done with good intent to avoid any “Pit Talk” about the whole accident for folks who receive info 3rd hand.

 

Firstly, Wow what a weekend at the Glen! Fantastic exciting racing and many thanks to Mike and all the Champcar staff who bust their ass to run this wonderful race series that we are all privileged to race in. There is no better place to be than racing in this series and having a few beers at the end of the day and hanging with fellow racers. The comradery is unmatched anywhere else in the racing world and this is what makes our awesome series so special…

 

So where to begin…. Well I have to say there are some fantastic cars and drivers out there that make this an extremely competitive and fun series to be a part of which is why I’ve been doing it for many years now.. I had a blast on the weekend racing against fellow drivers and had the pleasure of also racing with some folks that put up some fantastic driving battles as we were all jostling for position.. Excellent stuff!!!… And to McKibbons Bio1 driver.. I’m smiling today reminiscing the tight race we had and still chuckling about the massive sideways drift through turn #1 you had and miraculously recovered(We have video of that if you want 😊). Top notch and two thumbs up from me there!! lol

 

The accident itself to me I’m still not sure exactly what happened to be honest. We can all jump to conclusions but maybe this actually was a non-intent accident after looking at the video, I’m not 100% on any of it. In the back and forth between the two of us I thought he was just waving to say “Hi it’s me passing you again and this is fun” and maybe he lost control of the steering when he had his hand out the window. In the moment I was in a state of disbelief to what had just happened. The yellow Keltron car and I were having a fantastically fierce and competitive battles and traded positions multiple times over multiple laps. It was a heck of a lot of fun and I thought we were both having a blast as we were running at similar rates where he was quicker in some sections and I was quicker in others(And yes we had a horrible under-steer problem. Work in progrss. 🙂 ). I was checking my mirrors and knew he was there and gave him room when he was in a better position to pass(which he did on multiple occasions) and tried to stay as much on the racing line as possible in the fast and furious chaos out there.. I did not intentionally block anyone out there and if I did by accident then I apologize for that and owe you a beer!..

 

I don’t know or am even sure if it actually was the Keltron team or the flag station workers that highlighted Mike about the incident as to be honest it is very easy to mis-judge a split second event. It all happened so quickly and I’m just glad the guy in the yellow car was unhurt and hope the guys from yellow Keltron are able to fix their car so they can get back out racing again. I only hope there are no hard feelings between the two teams as that not what the spirit of Chump/Champ is about. Accidents will always happen when drivers are driving on the edge battling hard, adrenaline is flowing and are driving on each others bumpers.

 

We were destined to be tangling for most of the race in my mind and I had hoped it was going to be a long, tight and enthralling battle to the end of our shifts.. Sadly and extremely unfortunately this was cut short and if there had been different circumstances where the incident never happened we would have been drinking beer at the end of the day and talking about the fantastic close fun out there.

 

Let’s stay positive out there folks, I hope the guys from Keltron are all okay and able to “Fix er up again” and hope to see you guys again at champ in the future.. Maybe next time pop over and see us, have a beer and we can talk about all the good things that happened and put the whole unfortunate incident behind us.

 

Cheers,

Nigel

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41 minutes ago, RCR-NM said:

(And yes we had a horrible under-steer problem. Work in progrss. 🙂 ).

 

While it could be many things, one thing often overlooked is correct rake. Measured at the lift point holes along the sill you want around 0.75" extra height in the rear over the front.

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3 hours ago, RCR-NM said:

And to McKibbons Bio1 driver.. I’m smiling today reminiscing the tight race we had and still chuckling about the massive sideways drift through turn #1 you had and miraculously recovered(We have video of that if you want 😊). Top notch and two thumbs up from me there!! lol

Hells yeah I want to see it!  I was surprised myself first to be in that position, second to save it in that beat up MR2.  hahahaha   I had one of those in turn nine too where my recovery was a lot more touch and go, whew.  Had a blast racing against you, Nigel, and you've got nothing to apologize for.  As I mentioned earlier, good clean hard racing.  It was freakin awesome.  Both you and the 81 Honda, DamSon Racing, and the Connolly BMW.  Those were the highlights of my Sunday morning stint, all good, clean and fast dogfights.  That's why I do this.  

Edited by Jer

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2 hours ago, RCR-NM said:

I thought he was just waving to say “Hi it’s me passing you again and this is fun”

I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe he was just enthusiastically waving and looking in his mirror and accidentally pulled the wheel left and smacked into you.  

 

Also, excellent 1st post.

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On 5/27/2019 at 1:40 PM, pj3 said:

How not to behave. Overly aggressive block turned into a hit and a wrecked #531. It is hard to believe but the #531 blamed us for the accident. Thanks to this footage, we got "all clear" for our driver from Mike.

 

That's assault.

 

At VIR I had a first time renter in a black VW golf do that to me in the kink at 120mph.  Total code brown moment for me.  Let's hope Champ enforces a lifetime ban on this guy

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