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Jer

Handling EC cars in our series

As an organization, how should we handle EC cars?  

68 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. How should we as a series handle EC cars at our races?

    • Allow as many as want to register and let them play on the track with us. Don't change a thing.
      10
    • Limit them to five at any race unless the race is under-subscribed, and make it clear they are not part of the race during broadcasts.
      11
    • Allow team only a few races running EC, then they either build to the rules or go to another series. This is how the rules used to be.
      10
    • Let them run but do not classify them in the standings.
      24
    • Make them take their laps, be it 5 or 500, and classify them.
      19

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  • Poll closed on 05/29/2019 at 05:46 PM

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As a racer I was alarmed by the number of super fast EC cars at WGI.  I personally don't mind some EC cars, as an organization we can use the revenue and it help fill fields when races are under-subscribed.  But at WGI a lot of cars that met the ruleset were left out because of 13 EC class cars.  I don't like it, and I really don't like them getting a lot of airplay on our broadcasts.  They also clutter up the race results and make it hard to determine who is really racing.  I've made my opinions known to the rest of the Board, but I'd like to get a feel for how members feel.  Thanks for your feedback, just trying to make this series as good as possible.  

 

I don't want to ban EC cars, just de-emphasize them.  

Edited by Jer
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I'm not sure how to enable discussion so I'm adding a second thread.   Please give your opinions...

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There are EC cars that aren't that far beyond the rule set, that with a few adjustments could become legal. They don't bother me as much as the "other" EC cars that practically have a chuckle at the field while turning fast laps. All the while someone who built there car to the rules has to sit at home because the race was sold out.

 

I'm not sure what to do about it, but it does grind my gears a little.

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I had a great experience with most at WGI and the huge drafts attributed to my fast laps.  It's also fun passing a Cayman in a crapbox.  MCM drives a wide car which was frustrating at times.

 

The drivers also seem to skew better and I think that overall helps the series with it's goal.

 

There may be arguments of danger due to speed, but off hand I don't recall many incidents caused by an EC car.

 

That said, I think the series needs to stop the extreme coverage of the EC cars in broadcasts and even results.  Most of the top 10 we're EC cars and it takes away from the others who are racing with the rules.  

 

Sold out races, EC gets bumped.

Edited by LuckyKid
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4 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

That said, I think the series needs to stop the extreme coverage of the EC cars in broadcasts and even results.  Most of the top 10 we're EC cars and it takes away from the others who are racing with the rules.  

 

Sold out races, EC gets bumped.

This.

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6 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

That said, I think the series needs to stop the extreme coverage of the EC cars in broadcasts and even results.  Most of the top 10 we're EC cars and it takes away from the others who are racing with the rules.  

 

Sold out races, EC gets bumped.

This X3

 

How about have the EC cars tally their points, if they still fit in, they start in their respective classes with laps.

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My Opinion....

 

They should be limited to cars that are on our list of cars that are legal to race in our series,  that are built well beyond 500 points.  

They should be limited to a maximum point value.  (this would take some thought and discussion with the board and the TAC to determine a reasonable limit)

 

They should not show in the standings on Race Monitor/Hero.

They should not be in the results.

They should not be part of the broadcast.

 

 

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I prefer the old rule of allowing a car to run EC for a race or two but since we can never go back I think they should start each race 100 laps down so that they always show up at the bottom of Race Hero/Race Monitor.

 

When there is a waiting list the last EC car to register should be bumped out for the next non-EC car.

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2 minutes ago, Richard said:

I prefer the old rule of allowing a car to run EC for a race or two but since we can never go back I think they should start each race 100 laps down so that they always show up at the bottom of Race Hero/Race Monitor.

 

When there is a waiting list the last EC car to register should be bumped out for the next non-EC car.

A couple of practical limitations-we don't currently know what class most cars are in during registration.  This likely could be fixed with programming.  Also, once we take money, it's a PITA to do a lot of refunds.  Finally, some cars get bumped to EC during tech.  These are all issues that could be fixed, though.  

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The simplest work around to the above is to add a ton of laps to the scoring so that the EC cars show up at the bottom of the standings.

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^^^^ I like this. 
just add 100 laps to all EC cars. That way they can still compete with each other!

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

^^^^ I like this. 
just add 100 laps to all EC cars. That way they can still compete with each other!

 

 

 

This is hard to say... but Bill is 100% right; easier because Richard said it first.

 

Giving them hundreds of laps removes them from discussion on the broadcast it flat takes them out of the conversation.  They still race, they still pay... and best yet no extra work on staff.

 

As far as people not getting to race because EC cars are running... I have no sympathy for them.  Event entries open the same time for everyone.  There are several cars who only run Champ that only run EC because they are looking for easy track time... Look at the ACME 200sx... I doubt that car exceeds 600pts  (heck it might not exceed 400pts) and it has always run EC.  We don't need to chase them off.  Let them run what they brung but handicapped so they never reach the top ten overall.  They can have their track time and not mess with the standings.

 

Lastly if one of them is running a Mazda they need to be in the standings to they can show the result to mazda to keep their Mazda comp stuff membership.  And having more cars behind me on the results makes me feel better about being mid to back of the pack.

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Agree with above,  start at -100 laps let them have at it. 

 

As for WGI, I didnt find the EC cars to be out of hand.  Obviously the Cayman S was pretty quick, but drove respectfully out there.  Dont forget, 13 cars is only a bit over 10% of entries for that big race.  Its probably not totally out of line.  At a 50 car race thats only 5 EC cars.  Should it be more like 5%? 

 

I would support a 5% limit on EC entries for events that typically sell out.  The case could also be made that races that sell out dont allow EC cars either (show up and run with big points/penalty laps).

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Ding.  We have a winner!  I had the same thought this morning off line but came up with 500 laps.  That way they won't be mixed in with other teams, can have their own little race at the bottom, and nothing else needs to change.  

Edited by Jer
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I don't mind racing with the EC cars.

My biggest problem related to EC cars at the Glen was the pace car inconsistently picking up either the overall leader (EC car) or the non-EC leader.

We were trying to make up our penalty lap from Saturday and passed the non-EC leader, but the pace car picked up the overall leader so we didn't get the lap back.  

Also, when the pace car would pick up the non-EC leader, the EC cars would get free laps, further confusing the situation.

 

The -100 laps might solve this issue as there is no confusion who the leader is.

 

Edited by Scribe
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Just now, Scribe said:

I don't mind racing with the EC cars. My biggest problem related to EC cars at the Glen was the pace car inconsistently picking up either the overall leader (EC car) or the non-EC leader.

We were trying to make up our penalty lap from Saturday and passed the non-EC leader, but the pace car picked up the overall leader so we didn't get the lap back.  

Also, when the pace car would pick up the non-EC leader, the EC cars would get free laps, further confusing the situation.

 

Great point.  If we added 500 laps to the EC cars, then pace car picks up the REAL leader and we have no issues. 

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1 minute ago, Jer said:

Great point.  If we added 500 laps to the EC cars, then pace car picks up the REAL leader and we have no issues. 

And, the live broadcast stays focused elsewhere.

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6 minutes ago, Jer said:

Great point.  If we added 500 laps to the EC cars, then pace car picks up the REAL leader and we have no issues. 

I think a 100 will do ...  and would keep them from affecting the race for the legal cars , as Scribe had happen above ..

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Just now, Ray Franck said:

I think a 100 will do ...  and would keep them from affecting the race for the legal cars , as Scribe had happen above ..

Either way a lot of problems are solved with this action.  Thanks Ray.  It is being actively discussed by the Board.  

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21 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I don't mind racing with the EC cars.

My biggest problem related to EC cars at the Glen was the pace car inconsistently picking up either the overall leader (EC car) or the non-EC leader.

We were trying to make up our penalty lap from Saturday and passed the non-EC leader, but the pace car picked up the overall leader so we didn't get the lap back.  

Also, when the pace car would pick up the non-EC leader, the EC cars would get free laps, further confusing the situation.

 

The -100 laps might solve this issue as there is no confusion who the leader is.

 

I volunteered(pit out) at WGI and Jackie was pacecar driver. There was often times where the leader, whether it was the EC car or the Classed leader would pit. It threw the tower off and caused Jackie to pick up whatever car she came out in front of. I think a lot of it was just the way WGI operates in FCY EVERYTHING. It was frustrating for Jackie knowing she didn’t have the second place car, but when the leader pits, she and the tower can’t wait any longer in picking up the field. This would cause even further delay, especially if the second place car was on the back side of the track

Edited by jakks
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I always thought EC was sort of a waiver that allowed you to run. But now we have cars that are basically being built for EC.

 

If you show up and you missed something in the rules that makes you EC, run that race, but then fix it.

 

I don't think we should just be letting cars register as EC, especially at big events like Daytona, when they aren't making an effort to field a car built to the rules. Daytona was a good example where all the big top speed cars come out to play. The ZMW was Top 3 for the 1st couple hours, but we were showing like 15th or something after weeding out all the EC stuff.

 

 

Let them run a few races while they work out their issues, then tell them to get with the program.

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I was hit (hard) by a EC car at sebring.  It sucked to have our day ended by a M3 e46 that was poorly driven but had enough power to be fast on the straights.

 

No offense to Sahlens - they were nothing but respectful with the cayman, but I really don't think it makes sense in our series.  

 

I understand why they were allowed, to add to the bottom line, and I really do get that, but as I understand it the series is in good financial standing at this time.  There is an opportunity cost to allowing cars of that caliber in our series. For example, I have thus far avoided racing in AER because they allow cars like that BBY ford mustang or 911 cup cars, which are SO MUCH faster than what us "regular" people can field.   I actively consider avoiding popular EC car races like Sebring, Daytona, etc because of the higher chance of EC cars causing incidents.

 

I actually messaged Doc during the broadcast this weekend to see if he could move the camera to another car instead of just the cayman - it really doesn't fit the image of our series and I hope that we did not give anyone the wrong idea, regardless of how considerately it is driven.

 

I think some "judicial governance" needs to be issued or exercised.  Allow cars that fit the "spirit" of the series, but avoid cars that are above and beyond what is reasonable.  E46M3 is right about the limit of what I would consider as fitting the spirit of the series.  Mini S definitely fits, same with the ACME nissan, or others.

 

I definitely think that sold out races should prioritize non EC cars.  Indy is probably gonna be particularly full of EC cars which kept lots of cars built for the series out of the race.

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I initiated all this and now I'm really glad I did.  Thank you all for the great responses.  As a Board we are discussing it.  

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3 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I definitely think that sold out races should prioritize non EC cars.  Indy is probably gonna be particularly full of EC cars which kept lots of cars built for the series out of the race.

Indy is another issue, glad I am not the only one that noticed.

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4 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I definitely think that sold out races should prioritize non EC cars.  Indy is probably gonna be particularly full of EC cars which kept lots of cars built for the series out of the race.

Hopefully the series makes sure any of these cars that signed up, EC or not have the required amount of 2 race events in the last year before allowing them in.  I can see this being more of an issue honestly.

 

That said, I agree non-ec should be priority for the large events.  Allow the EC cars to enter, but be put on a waiting list.  Then make a payment deadline for non-ec and once it expires ec cars can sign up, if they can pay in full or they get skipped to the next EC car.

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