Jump to content
Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

Recommended Posts

Why do we even have classes?  For years I thought I was racing for a class win and would get disappointed because it seemed like champcar would minimize it. So I’m reading it’s by design and we are all chasing an overall win?  Having classes at all is a bit misleading.  Call me fooled. 

 

I’d prefer class racing and want emphasis on it.  There’s still the overall of course.  Now you’ve got 4 or 5 class winners leaving a race pumped up about their win and ready for the next.  You might see more variety as well.  A class win has big significance, it is NOT a participation trophy.

 

This is how at WRL *hissss* you can be out on track with some amazing cars and still feel like you kicked ass placing well in your slower GP3 or GP4.  Champcar needs to consider the entire customer base, not just the pointy end.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ETR said:

Why do we even have classes?  For years I thought I was racing for a class win and would get disappointed because it seemed like champcar would minimize it. So I’m reading it’s by design and we are all chasing an overall win?  Having classes at all is a bit misleading.  Call me fooled. 

 

I’d prefer class racing and want emphasis on it.  There’s still the overall of course.  Now you’ve got 4 or 5 class winners leaving a race pumped up about their win and ready for the next.  You might see more variety as well.  A class win has big significance, it is NOT a participation trophy.

 

This is how at WRL *hissss* you can be out on track with some amazing cars and still feel like you kicked ass placing well in your slower GP3 or GP4.  Champcar needs to consider the entire customer base, not just the pointy end.  

 

Well don't confuse opinion with fact. ChampCar goes to the trouble to provide trophies for the classes BECAUSE it means something to people to be first in A, B, C, or D class. What people debate here is what determines the class structure. Because many think the class structure needs to be overhauled, it minimizes a class win in their eyes. And it shouldn't. Class wins should mean something. 

 

I'll tell you what is meaningless: Competing in a race where you are the only B class car. We would only have to turn one lap to get a trophy. That is the definition of meaningless. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, FlorahDorah said:

I'll tell you what is meaningless: Competing in a race where you are the only B class car. We would only have to turn one lap to get a trophy. That is the definition of meaningless. 

Now that sounds like a regional SCCA race 🤣

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, morganf said:

Now that sounds like a regional SCCA race 🤣

 

drop the 'regional'...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, ETR said:

 A class win has big significance, it is NOT a participation trophy.  

 

You know cars have won D class while placing dead last, right? 

Big significance..................yea

33 minutes ago, FlorahDorah said:

I'll tell you what is meaningless: Competing in a race where you are the only B class car. We would only have to turn one lap to get a trophy. That is the definition of meaningless. 

 

I have won an SCCA race where I am the only person in the class. Boy that was fun.............. They even sent me a giant plaque with my name engraved on it and everything. I couldn't lose............WTF. 

Edited by red0
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the best encouragement for more cars in a class is a single car showing up and winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, theblue said:

the best encouragement for more cars in a class is a single car showing up and winning.

 

And then came the EC class cars....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, morganf said:

Jumbled yes, confused with First place no. 1000 laps would mean they will end the race with negative laps.
EC cars are regular cars with more than a 50 lap penalty. So there would be no other cars with between negative 50 and 100 laps.
2.3.5. ChampCar also offers the “Exception Class” designated as “EC” for cars exceeding 1000 points or teams not wishing to compete for a podium position

Why does it matter if at the end of the race if it shows negative laps? Any positive display of completed laps wouldn't be accurate laps anyway with any correction (-100 or 1000).  The actual lapchart will show how many laps were completed.  All EC cars would start with the same correction, so relative position would be consistent within the EC group.  There needs to be enough of a correction to the EC cars to prevent them from becoming unsorted in the timing and scoring with ABCD cars in even the most extreme cases (ABCD car DNF on lap1 of a 24hr race). Anything less will lead to much confusion.  Again the only purpose is to permanently sort the EC cars outside the classed cars. 

Edited by Shane G.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

You know cars have won D class while placing dead last, right? 

Big significance..................yea

 

 

I should have been clearer... class wins are significant in general (elsewhere?), but not in champcar.  No surprise there’s low car counts with no competition within class.  The carrot is the overall win. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ETR said:

Why do we even have classes?  For years I thought I was racing for a class win and would get disappointed because it seemed like champcar would minimize it. So I’m reading it’s by design and we are all chasing an overall win?  Having classes at all is a bit misleading.  Call me fooled. 

 

I’d prefer class racing and want emphasis on it.  There’s still the overall of course.  Now you’ve got 4 or 5 class winners leaving a race pumped up about their win and ready for the next.  You might see more variety as well.  A class win has big significance, it is NOT a participation trophy.

 

This is how at WRL *hissss* you can be out on track with some amazing cars and still feel like you kicked ass placing well in your slower GP3 or GP4.  Champcar needs to consider the entire customer base, not just the pointy end.  

 

 

ETR, the goal of our rule set is to ensure that everyone can compete for the overall.  The VPI table and costs of add ons is supposed to make different builds competitive.  How you use your points is up to you.  

 

We are not going to emphasize class racing.  I know a lot of people want that, but more do not.  So no WRL, no AER, no Lucky Dog.  We are Champcar and we are a bit unique in that aspect.  Thanks! 

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ETR said:

Why do we even have classes?  For years I thought I was racing for a class win and would get disappointed because it seemed like champcar would minimize it. So I’m reading it’s by design and we are all chasing an overall win?  Having classes at all is a bit misleading.  Call me fooled. 

 

I’d prefer class racing and want emphasis on it.  There’s still the overall of course.  Now you’ve got 4 or 5 class winners leaving a race pumped up about their win and ready for the next.  You might see more variety as well.  A class win has big significance, it is NOT a participation trophy.

 

This is how at WRL *hissss* you can be out on track with some amazing cars and still feel like you kicked ass placing well in your slower GP3 or GP4.  Champcar needs to consider the entire customer base, not just the pointy end.  

 

 

 

 

No matter the class, everyone is limited to 500 points.  Which means everyone has a shot at the overall win.  This doesn't focus on the pointy end, it theoretically puts everyone on a level playing field, it focuses on everyone.  It means you can't write a check, show up with an Elan NP01, and go home with your "purchased" trophy.

 

Beating the 7 cars in your class, sure it feels good.  Beating 70 cars, from every class, now that's the trophy I want, and Champcar is really the only place that someone not willing or able to spend metric tons of cash can even dream of doing it.

 

ChampCar's rule set fills a niche, which is exactly why it shouldn't change.  Not to mention, besides out west, enough people are voting with their entry fees that it's pretty clear they don't want it to.

 

How many races does WRL or AER sell out the entire field within minutes of registration opening?

Edited by SonsOfIrony
I kan haz spel
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps this increase in EC entries is an indication that ChampCar is missing part of the market and some internal reflection about how to better serve those customers should be explored? For starters you should stop discussing them like second class citizens with comments suggesting that they "aren't members" "didn't follow the rules" or that their opinions shouldn't be considered. They are certainly equal members with everyone else in this club and EC is a legitimate class in the rulebook.

 

If CC isn't using the rules they have available to keep "too fast" cars out that is not a problem inherent to having or scoring an EC class.

 

If you can't handle what someone comments about your race results on Facebook, then stay off Facebook.

 

CC should also consider posting their own official results and not relying on AMB/Mylaps/Speedhive to do that, then you can sort it however you want. 

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

Perhaps this increase in EC entries is an indication that ChampCar is missing part of the market and some internal reflection about how to better serve those customers should be explored? For starters you should stop discussing them like second class citizens with comments suggesting that they "aren't members" "didn't follow the rules" or that their opinions shouldn't be considered. They are certainly equal members with everyone else in this club and EC is a legitimate class in the rulebook.

They are members.    They did not follow the rules that allow them to compete for an overall win.  Their opinions matter at least as little as the rest of us.  They can submit petitions to change rules if they so desire.

 

If CC isn't using the rules they have available to keep "too fast" cars out that is not a problem inherent to having or scoring an EC class.

True enough.  I believe Champcar should put limits on the EC cars and stick to them, telling folks "sorry your car does not fit what we are about,  here is our rule book we would love to have you put together a car and team and join our fun.  From what Jer has told us, this is in the works and will be taken care of soon

  

If you can't handle what someone comments about your race results on Facebook, then stay off Facebook.

If you need to talk about winning a race with a car that is light years ahead of every other car on track, on Facebook....well I don't know

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

 

RTFM, EC is in the rules already. It's not them asking for a change, the anti-EC people should be the ones petitioning. 

 

Again, you are confusing the "too fast" cars with all EC cars, many (most) do "fit in". Some people just don't want to go through the "vehicle value" section of the rules and are willing to give up a shot at the overall to do so. Rule 2.2.2 should just be enforced as is IMO

 

If the powers that be want to change how results are displayed on T&S or discussed in the broadcast, have at it, that's not part of the official rules. 

Edited by ABR-Glen
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ABR-Glen said:

RTFM, EC is in the rules already. It's not them asking for a change, the anti-EC people should be the ones petitioning. 

 

Again, you are confusing the "too fast" cars with all EC cars, many (most) do "fit in". Some people just don't want to go through the "vehicle value" section of the rules and are willing to give up a shot at the overall to do so. Rule 2.2.2 should just be enforced as is IMO

I have RTFM  thanks for the friendly suggestion though.  :)

 

 

I'm not confused at all.   I think they should be limited no eliminated.     

 

I also think we agree on most of this. 

 

So HAGD

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

 

So HAGD

  

;):P:)

 

Sorry, I let my first reply be colored too much by recurring themes in this thread and not your specific words. 

 

Nobody wants un-necessary rule changes. 

Edited by ABR-Glen
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

Perhaps this increase in EC entries is an indication that ChampCar is missing part of the market and some internal reflection about how to better serve those customers should be explored?

Champcar needs to stop the market chasing.  Pick a vision and stick with it.  Are you a barebones budget series, a builder series, a driver series, are you moving up market to attract professional teams?

 

There's no problem with experimenting, but it can't affect your operational process.  EC is affecting the operational process, in such a way that two people think they won to race.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

If the powers that be want to change how results are displayed on T&S or discussed in the broadcast, have at it, that's not part of the official rules. 

And that's all we are doing right now, scoring and presentation.  Next year every car has to at least be on the VPI list even to run EC, but the vast majority of them are now anyway.  

Edited by Jer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LuckyKid said:

Champcar needs to stop the market chasing.  Pick a vision and stick with it.  Are you a barebones budget series, a builder series, a driver series, are you moving up market to attract professional teams?

 

There's no problem with experimenting, but it can't affect your operational process.  EC is affecting the operational process, in such a way that two people think they won to race.

We are sticking with our vision. We just have to react to keep the vision in the crosshairs.  This will always require adjustments to react to trends and changes.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Jer said:

We are sticking with our vision. We just have to react to keep the vision in the crosshairs.  This will always require adjustments to react to trends and changes.  

I do not believe the clarity of the vision is consistent within the organization.  I think all the individuals are terrific but sometimes the organization seems like it's heading different directions depending on who you talk to.

 

How EC is treated as a perfect example of this.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Champcar needs to stop the market chasing.  Pick a vision and stick with it.  Are you a barebones budget series, a builder series, a driver series, are you moving up market to attract professional teams?

 

There's no problem with experimenting, but it can't affect your operational process.  EC is affecting the operational process, in such a way that two people think they won to race.

 Agree 1000% about the vision. 

 

Who cares if two people think they won the race. What about the ABCD class "winners"? I used feel like it was a win if we could just beat the one team we cared about, everyone can have their own interpretation of what success is. Are there gong to be people who just want to see themselves on top of the standings even if it's not a level playing field, always. Are there going to be people who can't stand being not being on top if the guy above them wasn't following the same rules, of course. 

 

21 minutes ago, Jer said:

And that's all we are doing right now, scoring and presentation.  Next year every car has to at least be on the VPI list even to run EC, but the vast majority of them are now anyway.  

So, we let cars run in ABCD without being on the VPI list, but not EC

 

19 minutes ago, Jer said:

We are sticking with our vision. We just have to react to keep the vision in the crosshairs.  This will always require adjustments to react to trends and changes.  

I would like to see you post the vision here, IMO it doesn't get stated often enough (I think you board members should be required to recite it aloud ever night before bed ;)). Even better, justify your decision to make this change based on how it keeps the direction of the series in line with the vision.

 

(I'm not suggesting that you aren't following the vision, I just think it should be more "public", which is part of why I helped put you on the board).

Edited by ABR-Glen
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I do not believe the clarity of the vision is consistent within the organization.  I think all the individuals are terrific but sometimes the organization seems like it's heading different directions depending on who you talk to.

 

How EC is treated as a perfect example of this.

EC used to be a little used class for new racers to the series.  It was morphed into something different, so now we are reacting.  

 

The Board is made up of individuals, though, who don't agree on everything (duh).  Sometimes the CEO doesn't agree with the Board.  The TAC has different opinions and so does tech.  We have to balance all the opinions to come up with what we hope is best for the org.  If you feel strongly about something in particular, please write a petition.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ABR-Glen said:

 Agree 1000% about the vision. 

 

Who cares if two people think they won the race. What about the ABCD class "winners"? I used feel like it was a win if we could just beat the one team we cared about, everyone can have their own interpretation of what success is. Are there gong to be people who just want to see themselves on top of the standings even if it's not a level playing field, always. Are there going to be people who can't stand being not being on top if the guy above them wasn't following the same rules, of course. 

 

So, we let cars run in ABCD without being on the VPI list, but not EC

 

I would like to see you post the vision here, IMO it doesn't get stated often enough (I think you board members should be required to recite it around ever night before bed ;)). Even better, justify your decision to make this change based on how it keeps the direction of the series in line with the vision. (I'm not suggesting that you aren't following the vision, I just think it should be more "public", which is part of why I helped put you on the board).

LOL I don't see the other Board member engaging in this thread.  Trying here.  It was suggested to me that I'm trying too much by another Board member.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jer said:

LOL I don't see the other Board member engaging in this thread.  Trying here.  It was suggested to me that I'm trying too much by another Board member.  

 

 

I like that you try....

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jer said:

LOL I don't see the other Board member engaging in this thread.  Trying here.  It was suggested to me that I'm trying too much by another Board member.  

 

 

That's fine, their term will come up and they will have to try to earn the votes to get re-elected, you have already accomplished that.

Be that guy, we love you for it. 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...