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Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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5 minutes ago, Jer said:

LOL I don't see the other Board member engaging in this thread.  Trying here.  It was suggested to me that I'm trying too much by another Board member.  

 

 

 

I Wish you would share who told you that, so I could NOT vote for that person if they try to be re-elected

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20 hours ago, ETR said:

 

This is how at WRL *hissss* you can be out on track with some amazing cars and still feel like you kicked ass placing well in your slower GP3 or GP4.  Champcar needs to consider the entire customer base, not just the pointy end.

Out on track w/WRL @ daytona a short time after ChampCar was fun but only vaguely comparable, being classed means, out of the whopping 44 cars entered in the WRL race, we were only competing against a dozen (I think it was less) cars.

 

Finishing the race: Awesome

A team effort: Yup

Racing against < 12 cars all day: Anticlimactic.

 

Classes currently structured in Champ helps morale and does nothing to take away from the overall, this is the ultimate win, win.

 

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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1 minute ago, Team Infiniti said:

Out on track w/WRL @ daytona a short time after ChampCar was fun but only vaguely comparable, being classed means, out of the whopping 44 cars entered in the WRL race, we were only competing against a dozen (I think it was less) cars.

 

Finishing the race: Awsome

A team effort: Yup

Racing against < 12 cars all day: Anticlimactic.

 

Classes as currently structured in Champ help morale and does nothing to take away from the overall, this is the ultimate win, win.

Points and classes, or should I say the lack thereof, is the attractant for us.

 You honestly feel like there are more than 12 cars in an average CC field that are competing at the same level as your team?

It's not that hard to pick out the handful of cars in any given race who have a legit shot at the overall. 

I can't believe you really get anything out of finishing ahead of the "average" team.

 

Class racing is definitely different, and not for everyone, but most of the people who are strongly for single class racing here are also front runners.

You've got to consider how to keep the people in the back of the pack interested enough to continue paying entry fees.

Just look at the races where there are only 12 cars entered, even less fun than having 12 out of 44 to race against. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 You honestly feel like there are more than 12 cars in an average CC field that are competing at the same level as your team?

It's not that hard to pick out the handful of cars in any given race who have a legit shot at the overall. 

I can't believe you really get anything out of finishing ahead of the "average" team.

 

Class racing is definitely different, and not for everyone, but most of the people who are strongly for single class racing here are also front runners.

You've got to consider how to keep the people in the back of the pack interested enough to continue paying entry fees.

Just look at the races where there are only 12 cars entered, even less fun than having 12 out of 44 to race against. 

 

 

and yet CC still gets much better turn-out than these other class based groups...

must be a bunch of 'front runners' that keep coming back

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33 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 Agree 1000% about the vision. 

 

Who cares if two people think they won the race. What about the ABCD class "winners"? I used feel like it was a win if we could just beat the one team we cared about, everyone can have their own interpretation of what success is. Are there gong to be people who just want to see themselves on top of the standings even if it's not a level playing field, always. Are there going to be people who can't stand being not being on top if the guy above them wasn't following the same rules, of course. 

 

So, we let cars run in ABCD without being on the VPI list, but not EC

 

I would like to see you post the vision here, IMO it doesn't get stated often enough (I think you board members should be required to recite it aloud ever night before bed ;)). Even better, justify your decision to make this change based on how it keeps the direction of the series in line with the vision.

 

(I'm not suggesting that you aren't following the vision, I just think it should be more "public", which is part of why I helped put you on the board).

Ermagawd!  This is exactly my thoughts.

 

Write down the goals of champcar.

Reread every rule and see if it aligns with those goals.  If it does not, change it until it does.

 

If there are changes or decisions to be made, check it against the stated goals or vision.  

 

I actually don't know what the vision or goals of champcar are right now.  I don't see it posted prominently.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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6 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

 

I actually don't know what the vision or goals of champcar are right now.  I don't see it posted prominently.

Mike stated it perfectly at the annual streamed board meeting, but that's the first time I heard it.

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35 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 most of the people who are strongly for single class racing here are also front runners.

 

I disagree with this.  My team has a lot of mid pack to upper mid-pack results.   I love this series because I'm chasing the front and slowly getting there.  Being in a class with like 12-15 cars would be way less appearing than starting 80th, getting up to 8th place, falling back to 12th and hunting the front again.   that's what I'm here for.

Edited by theblue
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41 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 You honestly feel like there are more than 12 cars in an average CC field that are competing at the same level as your team?

It's not that hard to pick out the handful of cars in any given race who have a legit shot at the overall. 

I can't believe you really get anything out of finishing ahead of the "average" team.

 

Class racing is definitely different, and not for everyone, but most of the people who are strongly for single class racing here are also front runners.

You've got to consider how to keep the people in the back of the pack interested enough to continue paying entry fees.

Just look at the races where there are only 12 cars entered, even less fun than having 12 out of 44 to race against. 

 

 

 Proportionally, 12 teams that can podium in 100 car field is nothing like 12 teams overall, three cars that can podium three cars that are average and the rest are there trying to live their dream.

 

 Regardless of the rationale, Champ Car‘s class structure does provide positive drama for those not on the podium, strike that, the winners of each class are brought up the post Race  tech, and  acknowledgment.

 

 

Edited by Team Infiniti

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16 minutes ago, theblue said:

 

I disagree with this.  My team has a lot of mid pack to upper mid-pack results.   I love this series because I'm chasing the front and slowly getting there.  Being in a class with like 12-15 cars would be way less appearing than starting 80th, getting up to 8th place, falling back to 12th and hunting the front again.   that's what I'm here for.

 

Sorry, I can't consider a person with a C class win listed in their forum signature as "strongly for single class racing" ;)

 

I'm not trying to push for classes here or say that it would be better for you, I'm glad that our series offers what you are looking for.

Just calling it like I see it and reminding people not to forget about the little guy, i.e the majority

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28 minutes ago, chip said:

and yet CC still gets much better turn-out than these other class based groups...

must be a bunch of 'front runners' that keep coming back

 

Not everywhere. Turnouts for Champcar and other series vary widely across different areas, so some of the opposing views shared here come from differing observations. 

 

I’m in Texas.  CC has two races this year within a 2 day drive, both at the same track. A Class consistently wins overall at Harris Hill Raceway.  Sometimes 1, 2, and 3. EC has a small presence, dare I say it reflects the original intentions of the rules.  At the same time, I understand the views mentioned are legitimate issues further east.  

 

 

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45 minutes ago, chip said:

and yet CC still gets much better turn-out than these other class based groups...

must be a bunch of 'front runners' that keep coming back

...in a specific region of the country.

 

Are we OK with this becoming a regional series?

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55 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Class racing is definitely different

Sorry I missed a point posting while driving the infiniti to work, perhaps this addl time spent is why we are a little above average?

 

Yes class racing is different, so much so our team, nor car, participated in the WRL event, I guest drove a stockish e36, the gaps in competition were much larger then CC, within a few hours, barring mechanical issue, the podium was easy to predict.

 

And yes, the thought has crossed my lips to board members, we may have a product that is not viable in all regions.

Edited by Team Infiniti

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47 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

Sorry, I can't consider a person with a C class win listed in their forum signature as "strongly for single class racing" ;)

 

I'm not trying to push for classes here or say that it would be better for you, I'm glad that our series offers what you are looking for.

Just calling it like I see it and reminding people not to forget about the little guy, i.e the majority

 

I had more podiums when I was on an A class team

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1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

 You honestly feel like there are more than 12 cars in an average CC field that are competing at the same level as your team?

It's not that hard to pick out the handful of cars in any given race who have a legit shot at the overall. 

I can't believe you really get anything out of finishing ahead of the "average" team.

 

Class racing is definitely different, and not for everyone, but most of the people who are strongly for single class racing here are also front runners.

You've got to consider how to keep the people in the back of the pack interested enough to continue paying entry fees.

Just look at the races where there are only 12 cars entered, even less fun than having 12 out of 44 to race against. 

Whether or not the average car in the ChampCar field is on our level is irrelevant, the playing field is level (mostly).

 

As Infiniti said, the same is true in WRL. Just because you have the same PWR doesn’t mean you will turn the same lap times or be competitive by the end of the race. Out of 44 cars total and 12 cars in class you are really only racing against 3-5 of them.

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

Mike stated it perfectly at the annual streamed board meeting, but that's the first time I heard it.

Ohh....  I was at that, but missed part of it.  Can you paraphrase?  I'll search for it if you can remember how far into the meeting it was.

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I will post the vision statement when I have time.  Traveling right now. We finalized it a year ago and it should be in Board minutes.  Then I will explain why I feel EC negatively impacts the series and doesn’t mesh with the mission statement. Then the EC peeps can argue that.   

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Class racing has existed since the beginning of motor racing and the only reasons the classes compete on track together (not class against class) are to give everyone more track time and for time management. Even as a four year old I knew my Dad's Mini was not competing against the Corvettes and Camaros but that they were sharing the track. The only time these cars would compete against each other, head to head, was during the Sundown which was a 4-5 hour ENDURANCE event (shockingly introduced so that every car could compete for the overall win, what a novel idea) in which fuel and tires levelled the playing field.

 

The rule changes over the last few years have freed up so many performance enhancers that it's all but impossible for a legal, A Class car, to compete levelly with the dominant C Class cars simply because the factors that once balanced the cars have been eliminated (not a bad thing, it's just a fact).

 

 

 I'm also glad that Jer posts on the boards and often because he always has level-headed, clear and productive things to say and this allows for healthy and positive discourse to take place where it is absolutely needed. The rest of the board, apart from Mike C, should be much more involved on the forums because it's 2019, not 1919 and we have the technology to discuss and alter things in real time and this is benefit is being wasted.

 Mike C should keep doing what he's doing and his posts here should really only be for clarification and as the final word since, ultimately, it's his baby.

 

 

#EC -100 Laps

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2 hours ago, Jer said:

LOL I don't see the other Board member engaging in this thread.  Trying here.  It was suggested to me that I'm trying too much by another Board member.  

 

 

 

Actually, I suggested your original message was getting diluted.  Not that you were trying too much.  Big difference.  (assuming you meant me). 

 

Just because I'm not posting on the forums daily or hourly doesn't make me any less passionate about this series.  EC presents its problems and running them out of the series is not the solution.  Of course you know that.  We had that discussion in the BoD emails.  I'm all in favor of a 1000 lap penalty to keep the EC cars together.  I am NOT in favor of trying to run two races on race hero/race monitor.  That's extra administrative functions we don't need for a class that isn't eligible for an overall win.  

 

 

 

Edited by riche30
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1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

...in a specific region of the country.

 

Are we OK with this becoming a regional series?

Understood- in the east it is the best thing going for turn-out hands down.  But CC still struggles in other regions, and I'm not sure if that will change anytime soon.  just glad I live in the east...

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Ohh....  I was at that, but missed part of it.  Can you paraphrase?  I'll search for it if you can remember how far into the meeting it was.

 

 

Its obviously not distilled, but he states what Champcar is, what its there to do, and where it wants to go.

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7 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

 

I Wish you would share who told you that, so I could NOT vote for that person if they try to be re-elected

Sometimes talking too much  Doesn't  get you votes.   I'd like to know so I can vote for that person next time.

Edited by DEE DEE

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The last thing I can find from the Board, in summary form:

 

The ChampCar Endurance Series provides its members with a fun, affordable and competitive entry level road racing experience at the most iconic circuits across the US.

 

I won't get Dee Dee's vote next time, but I'm still going to address what I said I would.  These are my opinions, not speaking for anyone else.  

 

EC class IMO primarily affects the affordable aspect of the mission statement and secondarily, the competitive aspect.  Here is why.  We have members wanting to be competitive or at the top of the leaderboard, even in this thread, debating whether to bring or build an EC car vs. a classed car.  Let's say we change nothing.  At many races, EC will not be an issue, as it is not today, but at the high speed, high demand tracks-Daytona, WGI, Road Atlanta, Indianapolis, VIR and Road America, EC will likely continue to grow and those teams will more and more dominate the leaderboard. Teams making decisions on which way to go will consider building an EC car.  But EC is unregulated, so it turns into an arms race, with top times dropping by many seconds year over year as teams throw more and more money at their cars.  Again, these are all my opinions, but I think that's part of the issue with some of the other series.  Runaway spending, downward rocketing lap times (2:02 at WGI, as an example) and more and more trophies bought with money than with ingenuity.  That turns away average Joes who look for another series to run in.  I do not want Champcar to become THAT.  So EC is fine, but start many laps down or are not listed with the qualified teams, and let's go have fun.  It might hurt EC entries, but will protect the integrity of the series.  

Edited by Jer
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I do not think EC cars are an issue in our series. If we need them to start 100 or 1000 laps down so we can have a cleaner broadcast then we should take a look at it. I was in favor of this change per the BoD email strain. I raced with Sahlens down at Sebring and they were very respectful. 

 

Most of the EC cars who run with us have a CC as well. EC cars are paying members as well. We need to decide what we would like to see EC. I wish we could get more EC cars out west to help car counts. I did bring this up to the board to see if there was a way to capture the Lemons or Lucky Dog teams.  

 

I read the forums quite a bit but stopped posting so often because I like to listen and get opinions of different members about items that are being brought up. Knee jerk reactions and changes usually are not good for a series. I have members reach out to me via text, phone, email or in person at the track. 

 

 

 

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