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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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On 6/3/2019 at 1:23 PM, wvumtnbkr said:

I agree with you.  I'm just saying the car itself wasn't the issue.

I agree.  And I have talked with CCES and I think we are all in agreement.

If they sponsor, give them some slack.  BUT, they do not win, should not be in impound, should not be picked up by the pace car, etc.  They are just having a track day with us.

There should be a limit on the number of times a car can enter as EC.  After that take your point and move to the back and let those who have done the work race.

These are my thoughts, NOT CCES.  I don't speak for them, but we did have a good conversation.

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It “should” be pretty simple to apply a -50 lap penalty (plus multipliers per the rules for longer races) w/o any consequences as it’s already stated in the rules and has been for a while (4-5 years?).

 

EC car requests tech to put more effort into checking their cheaty/lazy tech form car, keep adding laps until they beg for mercy.

60FAEDC5-5D77-43A8-A948-C3F9FB7D5E6B.jpeg

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The rva car was checkered as the first car on both days. I was there on the start finish line.

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7 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

The rva car was checkered as the first car on both days. I was there on the start finish line.

 

 If RVA won and was the first car to receive the checkered flag, why are they not shown 1st in the results?

 

image.thumb.png.2ced952ec9c39ea27d262f57

 

What on the above results page tells anyone that HoChuck did not win?

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6 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

 If RVA won and was the first car to receive the checkered flag, why are they not shown 1st in the results?

 

image.thumb.png.2ced952ec9c39ea27d262f57

 

What on the above results page tells anyone that HoChuck did not win?

Tribal knowledge...

 

 

So the fix is/was so easy as was discussed pages ago (EC = -100 laps at start), and it seemed like this fix would be implemented during this race as a test.  It would be very transparent (as the top dogs always state they are and want to be) if the reason was provided why it wasn't done.  This example is a real good one as it is not stated anywhere in the standings which cars are EC, so I guess that red0 question is more than valid as how would anyone know that HoChunk didn't win?

Edited by chip

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Can EC just be eliminated, give ALL cars the correct number of points based on modifications and apply penalty laps as necessary?  This would allow them to compete for the overall win if they could overcome the penalty laps.

 

Anything specified as NOT legal per the CCES rules could be given a blanket 250 point hit (e.g. >+2 gallon fuel cell).

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Yes I get that ec car entries helps pay the bills for the series.  Especially out west with low car count entries.  What people are forgetting is that this is a grass roots series.  Budget builds run what you brung within the set rules.  Ec cars are outside the set rules and are usually cars from another racing  series with bigger budgets.  

We are forgetting that this potentially poses a safety issue.  For example: an ec car Chevy corvette (150mph top speed ) on track and racing with an A classed stock geo metro (95 mph top speed)   The speed differential is huge with scary Closing rates  on the high speed tracks that we visit.  It’s a bad mixture that can have devastating results.   This discourages the slower cars and the inexperienced drivers from entering future events.   The class system keeps these speeds down to a relatively safe level.    I’ve been with this series since 2011 and have seen the series change. The ec car class has exploded and needs to be addressed. 

My 2 cents 

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1 hour ago, chump5150 said:

Yes I get that ec car entries helps pay the bills for the series.  Especially out west with low car count entries.  What people are forgetting is that this is a grass roots series.  Budget builds run what you brung within the set rules.  Ec cars are outside the set rules and are usually cars from another racing  series with bigger budgets.  

We are forgetting that this potentially poses a safety issue.  For example: an ec car Chevy corvette (150mph top speed ) on track and racing with an A classed stock geo metro (95 mph top speed)   The speed differential is huge with scary Closing rates  on the high speed tracks that we visit.  It’s a bad mixture that can have devastating results.   This discourages the slower cars and the inexperienced drivers from entering future events.   The class system keeps these speeds down to a relatively safe level.    I’ve been with this series since 2011 and have seen the series change. The ec car class has exploded and needs to be addressed. 

My 2 cents 

The biggest cause of speed differential and safety risk is the 100% green racers on the track with everyone else.  The Cayman was only 2 seconds faster at WGI.  This series is setup specifically for new drivers but does nothing to help get them "up to speed" on the track itself.   The EC issue is different, but if we are evaluating safety and risk, this is an area that makes the most sense and is exactly within the vision of the series.   Not to hijack, maybe I will create another thread.

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2 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

The biggest cause of speed differential and safety risk is the 100% green racers on the track with everyone else.  The Cayman was only 2 seconds faster at WGI.  This series is setup specifically for new drivers but does nothing to help get them "up to speed" on the track itself.   The EC issue is different, but if we are evaluating safety and risk, this is an area that makes the most sense and is exactly within the vision of the series.   Not to hijack, maybe I will create another thread.

You can trust this is not the first time this discussion has come about, as of now, if you believe it or not, the experienced are proven more trouble then the noobs!

 

This is not a jab, but your team is a good example of what I am trying to say, are you hitting new racers or more seasoned ones, just saying, you had incidents before adjusting to our ways... Noobs are fighting for their lives, its obvious to the seasoned racers, we are in control and navigate easily by.

 

I am typing up something in your new thread but have not the time to finish till tonight, chat you then.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

The biggest cause of speed differential and safety risk is the 100% green racers on the track with everyone else.  The Cayman was only 2 seconds faster at WGI.  This series is setup specifically for new drivers but does nothing to help get them "up to speed" on the track itself.   The EC issue is different, but if we are evaluating safety and risk, this is an area that makes the most sense and is exactly within the vision of the series.   Not to hijack, maybe I will create another thread.

I disagree with you on this one.  In the 9 years we've been doing this, very few incidents we have seen were initiated by green racers.  It usually involves someone thinking that they can just drive their line regardless of who else is on track and bullying their way through.  Most of the new teams work to hold their lines and are relatively predictable on track, however they tend to have more mechanical related issues that can sometimes cause issues with other cars, ie: overheating their autozone brake pads and blowing a corner because they didn't realize how much different track racing actually is when it comes to the stress put on these vehicles.

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2 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

I disagree with you on this one.  In the 9 years we've been doing this, very few incidents we have seen were initiated by green racers.  

You very well might be correct, and I don't mean to defend any of the contact that our team had early on (I will wholly own that), but by definition of the rule an incident would always be the fault of the overtaking car, the green racer would never be at fault, and this very well might be the intent.  I just wanted to put another point out there that if speed differential creates unsafe conditions then EC might not be the biggest contributor to the speed differential.

Edited by LuckyKid
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I am not sure why I am wading off into this discussion, guess it's just a good day to avoid work.  To me, the original intent of EC was for cars that showed up to tech and didn't qualify.  That allowed them to race that weekend and go home to fix their issues to comply.  It seems a few years ago, the straying from this started and we began to see cars built for EC were showing up.  The money was good, so they were encouraged to continue to come, even offering trophies if there were enough cars.  There was no qualification or ruleset for them other then they didn't fit the ruleset.  In spite of that, my only issue is with particular teams.  Most of the EC cars have been ok.  The only ones I have had issue with are rental cars where a noob or a dumbass gets to sit in a car that can outrun most on the track.  The fact they have a high speed car under them increases their chance of creating an incident.  It happened to us last year, fast car, inexperienced driver, no affiliation other than somebody paid their driver fee, runs over us because they cooked a braking zone.  Knocks us out of a race so I lose what's left of the entry fee and when I get home I get to spend over $1000 repairing what they broke.  If they were in a regular class car I guess it could still happen, but seems less likely without the speed potential, makes it easier for me to deal with them on track to get around them or avoid them.  But, for the most part the EC cars that are not just rent a seat end up having decent drivers that show patience to get around the traffic so it's a non issue with those as far as the racing is concerned.

 

From the discussion so far, I think either giving them the actual laps over the 500 point rules or just adding 100 laps are both workable solutions to having them show up in the Mylaps standings in a way to not show them as the winner.  Pick a solution and go with it at the next race.

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1 hour ago, Burningham said:

 It happened to us last year, fast car, inexperienced driver, no affiliation other than somebody paid their driver fee, runs over us because they cooked a braking zone. 

 

Of course, our members in Classes A through D never hit each other-or was that your twin brother that hit us at Buttonwillow two years ago, which was after my "Walking Red Bull Can" (Troy Ermish) hit your car on the first lap?  <grin>

 

Our tech inspectors and race directors have the discretion to exclude (or pull of the track) any car that has too great a closing rate or exhibits too aggressive driving.  EC has existed in our rules for as long as I have been racing Champcar.  If someone from another series that has too large a fuel cell but wants to "give us a try", let him race.  If he likes Champcar we can encourage him to put some ATL "Spaceballs" in his tank and become legal.  

 

The board is reviewing this issue and revisions to the rules, as appropriate, will be made with plenty of advance notification.

 

You flying out to California to help out your cousin this weekend at Willow Springs?

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2 minutes ago, Voodoo Child said:

 

Of course, our members in Classes A through D never hit each other-or was that your twin brother that hit us at Buttonwillow two years ago, which was after my "Walking Red Bull Can" (Troy Ermish) hit your car on the first lap?  <grin>

 

Our tech inspectors and race directors have the discretion to exclude (or pull of the track) any car that has too great a closing rate or exhibits too aggressive driving.  EC has existed in our rules for as long as I have been racing Champcar.  If someone from another series that has too large a fuel cell but wants to "give us a try", let him race.  If he likes Champcar we can encourage him to put some ATL "Spaceballs" in his tank and become legal.  

 

The board is reviewing this issue and revisions to the rules, as appropriate, will be made with plenty of advance notification.

 

You flying out to California to help out your cousin this weekend at Willow Springs?

 

Yeah that wasn’t me, thats my story and i am sticking to it. Glad you remember it that way too. 

 

Its like I said I don’t have a problem with EC in general, its more of an issue of having someone in a car that requires a bit more expertise to drive it under control so its really not directly an ec issue, just seems worse in ec. We have contact in the series, its bound to happen as much as we all strive to avoid it. When you can cause it by speed and inexperience and just walk away and never even go face those it affects it makes it tougher to stomach. For example the jeep EC car this weekend was driven ok, they drive what they built, and they are a part of the series. No issue there with the racing. Figure out the scoring and its all good. I guess i am still pissed from my specific experience last year, so probably just clogging up this thread and I should just shut up. 

 

I cant come next week, wish I could, I always like new tracks. Hope yall have fun and make PeeWee drive both days please. 

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43 minutes ago, Voodoo Child said:

If someone from another series that has too large a fuel cell but wants to "give us a try", let him race.  If he likes Champcar we can encourage him to put some ATL "Spaceballs" in his tank and become legal.  

 

For an issue like that, a car that is really close to class legal, just nailing them with a big point (and therefore, lap) penalty and do away with the EC class and put them in whatever class they belong would be an easier integration into the series and easier to keep the cars on track "sorted out" with scoring/flagging/caution/etc.

 

For someone who has a big fuel cell, heavily modified engine, fully adjustable suspension, giant wing....they get tons of points and end up with -1,257 laps in class A, B, C, or D.  They have a lot more work to be class compliant, but isn't that ok?

 

Also, not on the VPI list, not gonna race, regardless of car or sponsor.

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How about a slight wording twist on this....

 

All ec cars start at 1500 pts.

 

That is 100 laps down.

 

It could even go in the rulebook.

 

If you want to race ec, that is a 1500 pt car.  Boom done.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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5 hours ago, Burningham said:

Most of the EC cars have been ok.  The only ones I have had issue with are rental cars where a noob or a dumbass gets to sit in a car that can outrun most on the track.  The fact they have a high speed car under them increases their chance of creating an incident.  It happened to us last year, fast car, inexperienced driver, no affiliation other than somebody paid their driver fee,

This is something I think needs to be looked at hard!  Any EC car that is an arrive and drive should be scrutinized.  If it is EC because it has every cooler known to man and all reliability mods to keep it from blowing up that is one thing.  Now if it has 400 hp and is a car that came from a pro series that is now trying to run here, that needs discouraged.  Rental teams in general create some issues, we were taken out by a team that had a renal driver driving for them on a track that the guy had a ton of laps on.  He admitted after the fact that he didn't think our car should have been as fast as it was and he was trying to get back in front.  Cost both cars about 2K in repairs and ruined our weekend and made for a long 9hr tow home.

 

I still cannot believe the GT4 porsche was allowed to race at Road America.  It created an issue in the first 4 hours of the race and that team blamed the team they hit!  Their attitude was "we", the series, should be happy they decided to race with us and elevate our brand......That comment was met with a less than friendly response of how good they must feel to have brought a gun to a fist fight.......

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14 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

This is something I think needs to be looked at hard!  Any EC car that is an arrive and drive should be scrutinized.  If it is EC because it has every cooler known to man and all reliability mods to keep it from blowing up that is one thing.  Now if it has 400 hp and is a car that came from a pro series that is now trying to run here, that needs discouraged.  Rental teams in general create some issues, we were taken out by a team that had a renal driver driving for them on a track that the guy had a ton of laps on.  He admitted after the fact that he didn't think our car should have been as fast as it was and he was trying to get back in front.  Cost both cars about 2K in repairs and ruined our weekend and made for a long 9hr tow home.

 

I still cannot believe the GT4 porsche was allowed to race at Road America.  It created an issue in the first 4 hours of the race and that team blamed the team they hit!  Their attitude was "we", the series, should be happy they decided to race with us and elevate our brand......That comment was met with a less than friendly response of how good they must feel to have brought a gun to a fist fight.......

Geeez,  your kinda harsh on rental drivers which I sure makes up the biggest percentage of drivers in this series including me. ( which has had zero, 0, nada ) contact in 6 years.

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52 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Geeez,  your kinda harsh on rental drivers which I sure makes up the biggest percentage of drivers in this series including me. ( which has had zero, 0, nada ) contact in 6 years.

I'm more about teams that bring in cars outside of the rules, then tout them as superior to bring in big $$ for rentals.  We did have an issue with a rental that left a sour taste, that said, we spent the last 5 months building a second car to "rent" out to people we know and trust.  Not against rentals, against people bringing cars that don't fit the rules and renting them out for big $$ then claiming to win

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On 6/18/2019 at 4:52 PM, Jer said:

As a Board we are in heavy discussion about EC.  That's all I have to say right now.  

 

Are we going to try an EC lap adjustment at this weekend's race in Willow Springs? 

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On 6/19/2019 at 7:38 PM, hotchkis23 said:

This is something I think needs to be looked at hard!  Any EC car that is an arrive and drive should be scrutinized.  If it is EC because it has every cooler known to man and all reliability mods to keep it from blowing up that is one thing.  Now if it has 400 hp and is a car that came from a pro series that is now trying to run here, that needs discouraged.  Rental teams in general create some issues, we were taken out by a team that had a renal driver driving for them on a track that the guy had a ton of laps on.  He admitted after the fact that he didn't think our car should have been as fast as it was and he was trying to get back in front.  Cost both cars about 2K in repairs and ruined our weekend and made for a long 9hr tow home.

 

I still cannot believe the GT4 porsche was allowed to race at Road America.  It created an issue in the first 4 hours of the race and that team blamed the team they hit!  Their attitude was "we", the series, should be happy they decided to race with us and elevate our brand......That comment was met with a less than friendly response of how good they must feel to have brought a gun to a fist fight.......

I was right behind that wreck and thru out the weekend was almost taken out by that bmw. They were clowns. 

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image.thumb.png.b6f023bef03eafe8bd2548ed3c31c8db.png

 

Looks like Champcar was able to help solve this issue at Big Willow by making EC its own category 

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My team, Pomona Speed Shop has been around a few years and we have raced a Neon and an E36 with some decent results at East and West tracks.

We are sitting on a SC 300 chassis right now that we are considering to build EC to save money in the long run by going with a cool drivetrain and a few other things that just wouldn't be fair racing against classified cars. If we built it we can pick and choose who to race with out here in the West because Champs competitor out here has been good to me and never given me a reason to not race with them, just another way of skinning the cat. Would kind of suck if Champ made the unwise move to listen to the internet jabber saying race today but get your car legal to race next week. The 100 lap hit or 1000 lap hit seems easy breezy. And as we have raced over the years when we look at scoring during, or after a race it's great to see that your in fourth but that's an EC car in front of you so awesome third place it is! I would set a lap time on any EC car that shows up that if they go under it they load up with no refund.

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1 hour ago, Jamie said:

image.thumb.png.b6f023bef03eafe8bd2548ed3c31c8db.png

 

Looks like Champcar was able to help solve this issue at Big Willow by making EC its own category 

 

Mmmmm.... doesn't look that way when you drill down into the data. We're not quite there yet. Apparently, it may be a little harder than the pundits think. 

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