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Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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8 minutes ago, FlorahDorah said:

 

Mmmmm.... doesn't look that way when you drill down into the data. We're not quite there yet. Apparently, it may be a little harder than the pundits think. 

shhhhhh 

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7 hours ago, Jamie said:

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Looks like Champcar was able to help solve this issue at Big Willow by making EC its own category 

Putting EC into its own separate timing group will still leave a page showing an EC car in P1 and that team may decide they were the "winner" of the event.  In this case clearly the Sunday event did not work right.  I hope this is just experimenting til the board chooses to put a large penalty on EC

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23 minutes ago, mostmint said:

Putting EC into its own separate timing group will still leave a page showing an EC car in P1 and that team may decide they were the "winner" of the event.

And it doesn't do anything about the live timing standings during the race, which I think is the far more important issue.

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On 6/19/2019 at 9:33 AM, LuckyKid said:

The biggest cause of speed differential and safety risk is the 100% green racers on the track with everyone else.  The Cayman was only 2 seconds faster at WGI.  This series is setup specifically for new drivers but does nothing to help get them "up to speed" on the track itself.   The EC issue is different, but if we are evaluating safety and risk, this is an area that makes the most sense and is exactly within the vision of the series.   Not to hijack, maybe I will create another thread.

That's funny..... because from our perspective it was 11 seconds a lap faster than us.... oh, wait.. no.. that was GWR.... 🙄

 

The EC cars (in my experiences) are not the cars shoving their way through traffic with dive bombings and door jukes.... and guess what.... neither are the noobs.

 

There have been stupid fast cars since day one of this series, I remember specifically a M3 at the first NL 24 blowing our doors off with at least 150 more hp.

 

The problem is that such cars are now just basically a rabbit for the field to chase and in many cases the car the front pack battles throughout the race.

 

EC is only a couple of poly bushings and an aluminum radiator for some cars.

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8 minutes ago, dogtired said:

 

EC is only a couple of poly bushings and an aluminum radiator for some cars.

 

Or a fuel tank that is too big.

 

Those are the cars that should be fine to race with, seem like easy enough fixes if they want to fall in line with the rules of the series.  If they are regulars in another series and an occasional guest in ours, then I understand why they wouldn't want to make the change, but give them penalty laps (points) and leave them in the rest of the field.  Do away with EC and cars not on the VPI list and be done with it.

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On 6/18/2019 at 9:53 AM, 55mini said:

So near the end of Sundays race I was sitting inside with a driver from the HoChunk Jeep and would like to share some comments as I was just a listener, a couple of other teams adding to conversation as well as Jay( National Tech).

 

The driver of the EC team said look we won the race!!!!! He was all pumped up and then he was told how so your EC and aren't even in the race. He replied well the results show we turned the most laps and shows we are first and in my book that means we won.

Jay looked over and said no not really in our org you did not win and you might just keep it quite as 111 won the race.

 

Long and short is EC still thinks they are in the race and turning the most laps wins.

I walked away and left the discussion as I had nothing good to add and just wanted to share the mind set.

I had a long chat with those guys at their debut of that car last fall at CMP.  They are an early Chumpcar team that grew very dissatisfied with the series probably 5 or 6 seasons ago.  To truly determine their mindset seems to be a more in depth analysis of why they left the first time.  They didn't like the rule changes that randomly descended from Mount Olympus.... and if you look at the new build I think you can understand why rather quickly.

 

They built a car that could win at NCM (which they consider to be their home track) and they did just that.

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How about if car is classified in the proper sub class- A, ,B, C, D with an M following the number to show it has taken max points in its subcategory and give it 100 lap penalty? This way a team could decide if they feel like doing the math they could try to get rid of some of the points, or just keep signing up as a MAX point car. And keep in mind if you get beat by a car with 100 penalty laps you are a participant in an event, not a competitor. 

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Spoke with Champcar President at NCM about the EC topic. After my conversation, I didnt get the feeling anything was going to change this year as far as handling EC cars in Timing and Scoring. He seemed to think the problem will self correct next season as EC will have to be VPI cars.  Was reluctant to make drastic changes as they can have unintended consequences.  Also said rule changes need to be voted on. I disagreed with all of those responses, and last time I checked there aren't any rules stating how/where EC cars need to be displayed within T&S and results? So should be within his authority to make needed changes?  I'm just one voice, but hopefully he heard enough concerns from other frustrated members and a 20page thread to give the issue some attention going forward.

 

P.S. Race Hero wasnt working at NCM, & I did have an EC team ask me if they could peek at my phone (I had RaceMonitor) to see they were still "winning/leading" the race.  Mmmm....I had to bite my tongue...yep you are leading the EC class! 

Edited by Shane G.
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The rule change thing doesn't make much sense.  You can have a declared 996 point car that takes 50 lap penalty per the rules.  As soon as you stop declaring or get over the 1000pt margin, you don't need to take any penalty laps and can "win" at watkins, ncm, indy, wherever.

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23 minutes ago, macheesy said:

The rule change thing doesn't make much sense.  You can have a declared 996 point car that takes 50 lap penalty per the rules.  As soon as you stop declaring or get over the 1000pt margin, you don't need to take any penalty laps and can "win" at watkins, ncm, indy, wherever.

This is going to annoy many when a EC car goes boasting all over social media about their win @ INDY

 

We really need to hand out some +1000 laps for EC here in 2 weeks...

 

Done being played the fool trying like heck to podium/cater to sponsors based on finishing position with a non EC car.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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6 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

This is going to annoy many when a EC car goes boasting all over social media about their win @ INDY

 

We really need to hand out some +1000 laps for EC here in 2 weeks...

 

Done being played the fool trying like heck to podium/cater to sponsors based on finishing position with a non EC car.

This is being made so hard when it shouldn’t be.    

 

This is feels like the good of the few over the good of the many.   

  

 

 

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Bottom line, we are going to be there and do as always, if someone thinks they "won" because gun to knife fight, so be it, unfortunately some have no problem sleeping after such proclamations. Whatever, I still trust Mike and staff to continue doing what they think is right.

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1 hour ago, Shane G. said:

 

Race Hero wasnt working at NCM, & I did have an EC team ask me if they could peek at my phone (I had RaceMonitor) to see they were still "winning/leading" the race.  Mmmm....I had to bite my tongue...

 

 

 

This issue is starting to happen at every other race now and it was said by a board member it would be addressed but it seems the series leadership would rather upset the 95% of the team's that abide and build towards the series rules than the 5% that arrive with cars that don't play by the rules and should have no problem having -100 laps added to their car/team by t&s at the start of each race...

 

@chisek @Bill Strong @Doc

 

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2 hours ago, Racer7x said:

 

 

This issue is starting to happen at every other race now and it was said by a board member it would be addressed but it seems the series leadership would rather upset the 95% of the team's that abide and build towards the series rules than the 5% that arrive with cars that don't play by the rules and should have no problem having -100 laps added to their car/team by t&s at the start of each race...

 

@chisek @Bill Strong @Doc

 

Would that be the aero rules or the ECU rules or maybe whatever the other speed creep friendly rule that is currently being extrapolated to the fullest?

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My car was a 100% legal car before the swap calculator. I am now reading in this thread that some believe that any EC car outlawed by the swap calculator needs to swap to something different (or as they put it "make changes to be within the rules") or stop racing in this series? Thanks, no. As soon as I spend that next few hundred hours swapping V2, I have zero confidence that the rules will still allow whatever the next swap would be in future years. 

 

Seems strange that a car built to a set of rules can be excluded from running in that same series a few years later. Be careful the path you choose, this is a slippery slope. Speed differential is not going away unless you start freezing the VPI list... cars after mid 2000's got faster and faster almost every year...

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, CBraden said:

My car was a 100% legal car before the swap calculator. I am now reading in this thread that some believe that any EC car outlawed by the swap calculator needs to swap to something different (or as they put it "make changes to be within the rules") or stop racing in this series? Thanks, no. As soon as I spend that next few hundred hours swapping V2, I have zero confidence that the rules will still allow whatever the next swap would be in future years. 

 

Seems strange that a car built to a set of rules can be excluded from running in that same series a few years later. Be careful the path you choose, this is a slippery slope. Speed differential is not going away unless you start freezing the VPI list... cars after mid 2000's got faster and faster almost every year...

No one in a position of authority has said you cannot run with Champcar in the future.  Also, the swap calculator has been around for at least four years, this is not a new thing.  Come out and race.  

 

Finally, we need to allow newer cars into the series, but the VPI will be set so they are not able to make obsolete all the other cars.  Any overdog will be reeled in.  There will still be speed creep regardless, as teams improve their cars, their driver abilities, and their use of the points already in existence.  

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12 hours ago, CBraden said:

My car was a 100% legal car before the swap calculator. I am now reading in this thread that some believe that any EC car outlawed by the swap calculator needs to swap to something different (or as they put it "make changes to be within the rules") or stop racing in this series? Thanks, no. As soon as I spend that next few hundred hours swapping V2, I have zero confidence that the rules will still allow whatever the next swap would be in future years. 

 

Seems strange that a car built to a set of rules can be excluded from running in that same series a few years later. Be careful the path you choose, this is a slippery slope. Speed differential is not going away unless you start freezing the VPI list... cars after mid 2000's got faster and faster almost every year...

 

 

 

 

Your not alone. We'll be asked to race elsewhere with one of your cars next year. A car we've raced several times in CC and not once been the fastest car on the track.

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@CBraden and @u-turn and others running EC cars: I hope you don't take the OPINIONS of a few people on this forum as being the intentions of the series management.

within TAC discussions and from any communications Ive seen amomgst the BOD, i don't think anyone in those circles wants to ban EC cars from the series. 

 Most of the complaints you see on here are due to the live broadcasts talking so much about the EC cars, or the fact that race hero in Race Monitor do not have a good way of differentiating them from the rest of the field when looking at the standings. 

While that issue is being sorted out, I hope that all of the folks running EC cars will continue to come out and enjoy these races and support the series. 

The fact that  nothing has changed yet is an indication that upper management doesn't want to do anything to piss off the people running EC cars. They are studying this very carefully and trying to figure out the best thing to do for all involved. Don't let the whiners bring you down and affect your view of the series. 

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3 hours ago, mcoppola said:

@CBraden and @u-turn and others running EC cars: I hope you don't take the OPINIONS of a few people on this forum as being the intentions of the series management.

within TAC discussions and from any communications Ive seen amomgst the BOD, i don't think anyone in those circles wants to ban EC cars from the series. 

 Most of the complaints you see on here are due to the live broadcasts talking so much about the EC cars, or the fact that race hero in Race Monitor do not have a good way of differentiating them from the rest of the field when looking at the standings. 

While that issue is being sorted out, I hope that all of the folks running EC cars will continue to come out and enjoy these races and support the series. 

The fact that  nothing has changed yet is an indication that upper management doesn't want to do anything to piss off the people running EC cars. They are studying this very carefully and trying to figure out the best thing to do for all involved. Don't let the whiners bring you down and affect your view of the series. 

 What about the current EC cars that aren't on the VPI list, they are being told they are no longer welcome after this year, correct? Or is there a plan to add those cars to the list with deliberately high VPI so that they cannot be competitive? That will of course open up those engines to swaps...oh the tangled web we weave. 

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Picking on no one in general, but I have never raced anywhere that lets noncompliant cars in as freely as the series does.

 

 Just saying...

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47 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Picking on no one in general, but I have never raced anywhere that lets noncompliant cars in as freely as the series does.

 

 Just saying...

 

No one else has a rule set so restrictive or written in this manner to equalize cars. Most if not all EC cars race in other series. 

 

Things allowed elsewhere are not allowed here in the name of low cost, creating a potential large pool of EC cars

Edited by skierman64

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1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

No one else has a rule set so restrictive

No other race series is as restrictive????  Really?????     

 

Just what an an entry level ease of access series needs  is a large pool of unlimited cars with the only restriction being 180 tires.       No thanks.  Be careful what you ask for.   

Edited by JDChristianson
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This has been mentioned before, and at least one other racing series does this already... put it in race officials hands.

Put EC cars into classes based on displacement, but give penalty laps based on tech inspection at the race.

Just like every other series in the world, race officials get to make that call:

     If you show up with a highly modified 2010 M3, and race officials rate it as a 1500 point car, you start the race 100 laps down.

     If you show up with a Mazda NP01 (google it, purpose built tube framed race car - I had to race against one in WRL),

          and race officials rate it as a 3500 point car (retails new at over $70,000), then you start 300 laps down.

That allows everyone that wants to race any car they like, but puts appropriate penalty laps to cars that are not built to the rules.

and give officials the right to disqualify any car deemed too fast (or slow even) for ChampCar.

 

Alternatively, fix the classes:

     Stock - exactly that, and only from the VPI list (which can/should be updated regularly, once every 3 years?)

     Superstock - VPI listed cars with mods allowed for wheels, suspension, exhaust, and software to stock ECU. No engine swaps.

     Supercar - VPI listed cars, any and all mods - including engine swaps, aero, and engine mods - allowed.

     Unlimited - any car, VPI listed or not, with any mods.  But give race officials the right to refuse any car

                         deemed “too fast” for safety reasons.

Give same class trophies/class wins as we do today.

Lets drop the idea that “every class has a chance at winning the overall”.  What’s good for WEC, Lemans, Daytona24, and ALMS -

should be good for us in ChampCar.  Prototype1 cars will always win the overall at Lemans, but the racing for class wins is fierce - even

amongst the manufacturers (Porsche, Chevy, Ford, Lamborghini, Audi, BMW).  These manufacturers know they have zero chance

of winning overall - but they still send teams, spend 10s of millions, racing for class wins and championships. Why can’t that work

for us?

 

Stock class would allow for low-cost-of-entry, and could be used by teams to improve their cars if they want faster cars (move up to

Superstock with improved suspension, wider wheels, etc.) Teams, if they choose to, could go even faster - swap for bigger motors,

or bore/stroke/port/polish/supercharge - with the very same car but now racing in the Supercar class.  And finally, if someone

wants to race their 911 GT3, let them bring it and race the Unlimited class.  Depending on whose driving that 911 GT3, it may or

may not be unsafe speed-wise - officials at the track get to make that call.  But anyone crazy enough to bring that kind of car to

ChampCar  - and take a chance of doing 10s of thousands in damage to race with a bunch of mid 90s Miatas - that’s their call.

 

Whats the downside of either of these solutions?  Allows everyone a way to start racing with low cost.  Allows those that want

to spend more to go faster to that - all within the rules.  And it welcomes every car/team on the planet to come race ChampCar

provided that you are not so fast that you are a danger to other teams.

 

Only thing it changes - and I don’t personally see this as a downside, it’s just different - is this notion that “any car/class can

win the overall”.  That isn’t true in any other endurance racing series on earth - so why should we care if that change is made

here in ChampCar?

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