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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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The only change I would make is that as a race fills up, EC cars get bumped for Champcars. EC cars are a great way for teams to try the series, and help pay the bills but if a race is full they should be the first to be bumped. 

 

Also, don't pick them up for yellows, that is constantly screwing up the races. 

Edited by red0
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Why is this a problem? EC class is a different class. If they beat you it doesn't count.

 

Just like if a GP1 beats a GP4 car in WRL. Just like if 240 lbs weight lifter lifts more than a 121 lb weight lifter.

 

The app shows the class. Maybe champcar could do a better job showing what car belongs to what classes.

 

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Add a column on the speed hive or brodcast with the class each car is in. Does that not solve the broadcast problem of who is leading what category and the race?????

 

7 minutes ago, Jer said:

For me it was the broadcast, actually.  They could seem to keep track of which cars were exhibition and which were in the race which really impacted me.   Surprisingly, I got a number of private message from qualified teams upset because the standings don't reflect how they actually did.  They mentioned trying to take results to potential sponsors, explaining they won or placed when on paper it looked like they didn't do that well.  No sponsorship.  Other mentioned friends and family looking at them like liars when seeing the standings.  That's not good for members.  

 

I got it wrong.  Thanks.  

 

 

Now take the exact statement about qualified cars and replace it the EC car that now starts 100 laps down. They go to sponsors and try to explain to sponsors or friends why they are 97 laps or more behind... Same outcome no? Or do we not care about EC class or are they now lesser members?

Edited by chbright

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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

Why is this a problem? EC class is a different class. If they beat you it doesn't count.

  

Just like if a GP1 beats a GP4 car in WRL. Just like if 240 lbs weight lifter lifts more than a 121 lb weight lifter.

 

The app shows the class. Maybe champcar could do a better job showing what car belongs to what classes.

 

 

They get picked up as the leader in yellow flag situations, that can totally ruin a race for the teams that are actually racing. 

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3 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

but the emails...

 

all deleted

 

Edited by Snake

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2 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Just like if a GP1 beats a GP4 car in WRL. Just like if 240 lbs weight lifter lifts more than a 121 lb weight lifter

 

It's nothing like that, WRL is class racing (unfortunately) The champcar classes are arbitrary and not based on performance. They are not really classes, just arbitrary ways of giving out a few extra awards at a race. 

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54 minutes ago, chbright said:

Add a column on the speed hive or brodcast with the class each car is in. Does that not solve the broadcast problem of who is leading what category and the race?????

 

 

 

Now take the exact statement about qualified cars and replace it the EC car that now starts 100 laps down. They go to sponsors and try to explain to sponsors or friends why they are 97 laps or more behind... Same outcome no? Or do we not care about EC class or are they now lesser members?

Those EC teams with sponsors looking for results obviously did not explain everything?

 

Have we all been unknowingly getting played this whole time with EC making winning promises to their sponsors?

Edited by Team Infiniti
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13 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Those EC teams with sponsors looking for results obviously did not explain everything?

 

Have we all been unknowingly getting played this whole time with EC making winning promises to their sponsors?

 

So let's stick it to them for playing us and drive them away! Grab the pitch forks boys. Green font......

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1 minute ago, chbright said:

 

So let's stick it to them for playing us and drive them away! Grab the pitch forks boys. Green font......

I have to assume you campaign an EC car and run to see it at the top of the standings.  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

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4 minutes ago, Jer said:

I have to assume you campaign an EC car and run to see it at the top of the standings.  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

The way I understand the rules they are not really in the race.    Are they so thin skinned that need to bring a car outside the rules and be shown in the results that they really aren’t in?   I doubt it.  I personally just want to see the results as without the exhibition cars.  

 

Don't run an EC car, may in the future, may rent a seat in one at some time if I'm fortunate enough. Who knows.

 

JD, are the non EC owners/drivers/teams too thin skinned to let EC cars on their results..... Or are just EC guys thin skinned. 

 

This cuts both ways guys. Putting the EC down 100 laps or more will effect the perception of them, from the owners of EC cars, drivers, renters, potential renters, and sponsors. Currently there are mostly non EC guys fanning the flames from their view of the situation. And it's pretty much a kick at the EC guys without much care about how it may effect them. 

 

Try to think how the EC guys would take this: drivers, owners, renters, sponsors...... Or are the EC folks don't matter as much?

 

 

The classification sheet is something that I agree is a royal pain in the arse to decipher who won what and placed where in the overall results and class results. It's not extremely user friendly on speedhive or the Excel files sometimes posted.

 

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another thing I haven't seen in this thread....  I've personally witnessed a team that had one EC car and one car in the race order their EC car to block a car competing with their non-EC car to help it win.

Edited by theblue

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4 minutes ago, chbright said:

Or are the EC folks don't matter as much?

Not saying one teams entry fee and support is different then another but those in EC have always been there for one reason on another, be it principle "I want coolers" or "I don't want to do the points thing" or "I already had this car or these struts and I aint changing them"

 

The EC guys know why they are there, but do they expect the rest of us to care terribly about standings that are never counted?

 

Yes it is awkward trying to explain finishing positions sometimes.

 

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5 minutes ago, theblue said:

another thing I haven't seen in this thread....  I've personally witnessed a team that had one EC car and one car in the race order their EC car to block a car competing with their non-EC car to help it win.

 

Can be done with any 2 car team...

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Just now, Snake said:

 

Can be done with any 2 car team...

Yeah I don't think that's an EC problem, just a problem.  Let's not pile on here.  

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fair enough. my point was more that with an EC car that can out muscle  the field you can do more damage.

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11 minutes ago, chbright said:

 

 

Don't run an EC car, may in the future, may rent a seat in one at some time if I'm fortunate enough. Who knows.

 

JD, are the non EC owners/drivers/teams too thin skinned to let EC cars on their results..... Or are just EC guys thin skinned. 

 

This cuts both ways guys. Putting the EC down 100 laps or more will effect the perception of them, from the owners of EC cars, drivers, renters, potential renters, and sponsors. Currently there are mostly non EC guys fanning the flames from their view of the situation. And it's pretty much a kick at the EC guys without much care about how it may effect them. 

 

Try to think how the EC guys would take this: drivers, owners, renters, sponsors...... Or are the EC folks don't matter as much?

 

 

The classification sheet is something that I agree is a royal pain in the arse to decipher who won what and placed where in the overall results and class results. It's not extremely user friendly on speedhive or the Excel files sometimes posted.

 

I look at ec as a way to come out and play.

 

I do not understand the mentality of taking a non legal car and trying to see how you stack up against legal cars. 

 

Just do the minus 100 laps.  It's easy.

 

If you don't like it, follow the damn rules.

 

If you don't wanna follow the rules, you don't get the benefits.

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4 minutes ago, chbright said:

 

 

Don't run an EC car, may in the future, may rent a seat in one at some time if I'm fortunate enough. Who knows.

 

JD, are the non EC owners/drivers/teams too thin skinned to let EC cars on their results..... Or are just EC guys thin skinned. 

 

This cuts both ways guys. Putting the EC down 100 laps or more will effect the perception of them, from the owners of EC cars, drivers, renters, potential renters, and sponsors. Currently there are mostly non EC guys fanning the flames from their view of the situation. And it's pretty much a kick at the EC guys without much care about how it may effect them. 

 

Try to think how the EC guys would take this: drivers, owners, renters, sponsors...... Or are the EC folks don't matter as much?

 

 

The classification sheet is something that I agree is a royal pain in the arse to decipher who won what and placed where in the overall results and class results. It's not extremely user friendly on speedhive or the Excel files sometimes posted.

 

 

They (EC) probably shouldn't have been put at the top of the standings to begin with. I'm sure there are EC teams that have read the rules and then wondered why they were P1 in the results.

 

2.2.1. The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar
compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but
exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any team not wishing to
compete for the overall win.

 

Please explain to me how this is "a kick to the EC guys" who weren't competing for the win to begin with? Do these people also like to go to the local t-ball field and go all Mike Trout on the 6 year-olds? I doubt it. I imagine most of them are out having a fun weekend at the track. More opinions from EC people would be nice.

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25 minutes ago, B-Rad said:

 

They (EC) probably shouldn't have been put at the top of the standings to begin with. I'm sure there are EC teams that have read the rules and then wondered why they were P1 in the results.

 

2.2.1. The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar
compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but
exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any team not wishing to
compete for the overall win.

 

Please explain to me how this is "a kick to the EC guys" who weren't competing for the win to begin with? Do these people also like to go to the local t-ball field and go all Mike Trout on the 6 year-olds? I doubt it. I imagine most of them are out having a fun weekend at the track. More opinions from EC people would be nice.

 

So if an EC car is 100 laps or 97 down at the end of a race, how will that look to potential renters or possibly sponsors?  Instead of showing you completed the same amount of laps as the classified winner, you completed 100 (or 97 in the case of the Cayman) less. How will potential renters view that when picking which team to rent from based off the results page? You think renters will not see it as a car off track and less seat time available? That 100 lap penalty really is kicking them. 2nd if they get dropped from the race after signups for classified car.  how do they explain that to the renters. Some of those renters, teams, may have already purchased flights to the race and a hotel.  

 

Trout at a t-ball game, really? I'm failing to see where these Mike Trout like cars are in champs. Are there Lamborghinis and Ferraris running all of a sudden stomping the field as your example suggested like Trout? Or Toyota bring the TS050 to the Glen like Mike Trout at a t-ball game?

 

Champ isn't going to let some super car in and spoil things. Never did in the past why would they now? 

 

Again a result page with a way to filter them out better would go a long way. 1st it does not cast the EC guys into a 100 lap hole to explain away to renters or sponsors. 2nd it would give a way for the classified teams to filter the EC out to show overall classified results. 3rd a way to filter to results by class. And filter at the nationals with who is in the championship and who is not eligible but running (EC or some classified class).

 

Simply -100 laps on the EC results has ramifications to the EC guys more than just the top page of the results.

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1 hour ago, red0 said:

The only change I would make is that as a race fills up, EC cars get bumped for Champcars. EC cars are a great way for teams to try the series, and help pay the bills but if a race is full they should be the first to be bumped. 

 

Also, don't pick them up for yellows, that is constantly screwing up the races. 

 

Seriously?  Yeah I’m gonna be one of the first to sign up for a race, pay dues, get ready, request days off work, and sit by the phone to see if we get bumped?  Whatever dude. 

 

Either allow it or don’t. Eff this noise about bumping teams after the fact that also help CC pay the bills.  Gimme 100 laps as EC or make me stay within class and eat the points over 500.  Fine.  But I’m not gonna “eh wait and see”.  You guys say this like you forget what goes into making a race weekend.

Edited by ETR
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There are many teams who happen to have cars which fall into EC, but keep running ChampCar because the events/tracks/quality of racing are better than our competing series. It’s easier/cheaper/more fun for these teams to keep running the car they have, than to build a new car to fit the rules. These teams should still be welcomed and I don’t think an entry cap of any kind is appropriate. 

 

As far I see it, the only problem with EC cars is that they muck up timing and scoring, so I am a proponent of -100 laps and no other changes relating to EC.

Edited by enginerd
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Isnt letting EC cars have a say in this like letting non-citizens have a vote in elections?

 

Sure, come on over and enjoy the fun, but integrate into the group or deal with what is best for the group.

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I am not in favor of bumping ec cars from the race.  They had the same chances and same money to sign up as a legal car.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, chbright said:

 

So if an EC car is 100 laps or 97 down at the end of a race, how will that look to potential renters or possibly sponsors?  Instead of showing you completed the same amount of laps as the classified winner, you completed 100 (or 97 in the case of the Cayman) less. How will potential renters view that when picking which team to rent from based off the results page? You think renters will not see it as a car off track and less seat time available? That 100 lap penalty really is kicking them. 2nd if they get dropped from the race after signups for classified car.  how do they explain that to the renters. Some of those renters, teams, may have already purchased flights to the race and a hotel.  

 

Trout at a t-ball game, really? I'm failing to see where these Mike Trout like cars are in champs. Are there Lamborghinis and Ferraris running all of a sudden stomping the field as your example suggested like Trout? Or Toyota bring the TS050 to the Glen like Mike Trout at a t-ball game?

 

Champ isn't going to let some super car in and spoil things. Never did in the past why would they now? 

 

Again a result page with a way to filter them out better would go a long way. 1st it does not cast the EC guys into a 100 lap hole to explain away to renters or sponsors. 2nd it would give a way for the classified teams to filter the EC out to show overall classified results. 3rd a way to filter to results by class. And filter at the nationals with who is in the championship and who is not eligible but running (EC or some classified class).

 

Simply -100 laps on the EC results has ramifications to the EC guys more than just the top page of the results.

 

If EC teams are receiving sponsorship and/or renters based on ChampCar results, then they are pulling the wool over people's eyes. Potential renters only need to see lap times. If they don't understand that adding 100 to the laps completed indicates total laps, then I don't know what to say.

 

I run a car built to the rules. Is it awkward trying to explain the results to my sponsors, family, and friends? Yeah, a little. If nothing changes and I still have to explain after each race, will I lose any sleep? Not a wink.

 

I will say that the -100 laps does fix the pace car issue though. I do like that.

 

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15 minutes ago, ETR said:

 

Seriously?  Yeah I’m gonna be one of the first to sign up for a race, pay dues, get ready, request days off work, and sit by the phone to see if we get bumped?  Whatever dude. 

 

Either allow it or don’t. Eff this noise about bumping teams after the fact that also help CC pay the bills.  Gimme 100 laps as EC or make me stay within class and eat the points over 500.  Fine.  But I’m not gonna “eh wait and see”.  You guys say this like you forget what goes into making a race weekend.

This won't happen.  Once registered, we are not going through the process of deregistering people.  So no worries there.  

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