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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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It’s going to be interesting to see what if anything Champcar does for Indy. I don’t get the mentality of a team that runs EC would ever think to say/feel they won overall. It says right in the rules they do not count toward the overall. In the rule book........I guess we should cage that GT3 RS so we can say we won a Champcar race (we’d probably still get beat by Ickx or the Shark not to mention that freakin’ SAAB). 

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34 minutes ago, frankrehnelt said:

 

Our “for fun” car is currently EC (it’s and old SE30) but its slow. We call her EC-   We are planning on making it faster (reduce weight reduce weight reduce weight) and comply to C class by VIR24 so we can participate in the race. 

Is that motor down on power? Has a better suspension under it than most similar prepped (i.e no aero) E30’s. 

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Was. Cracked the head a Daytona. New head has brought power level in line with 901. Has coil overs and sway bars and hard mounts. It handles great but was a dog because of the weight and down on power. 3.73 final drive hurts on some tracks. It’s going to be spec’ed out like 901 soon but not at Indy. Even if it was fast we take our time during pit stops and change driver when we feel like put fuel in when we shouldn’t, stay out of people’s way.........because EC is really not in the race........right? 

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Sure been many pages of ideas and those that thought the fix was happening at NCM.

 

Looks to me like the powers to be just think everything is OK for now and my money (if I had any)would say won't have any changes until next year, or maybe not even then :-)

 

Keep up the debate as it makes for fun reading.

 

And for the record several good ideas for solutions, +100 laps and or EC on team name are both easy.

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13 hours ago, thewheelerZ said:

Man you guys are harsh....

 

remember, this is all for fun.... and.... the whole idea of EC is to let a car come race with us. The hope is that they like the racing with Champ and feel it's worth it to change their car over to be 500 point legal. 

 

If you are going to make it not fun/just a lapping day/not worth it to come out and race, if you are going to take their name away, if you aren't going to let them have a transponder, etc,  then you are going to just make the experience so terrible for them you might as well just say no EC cars allowed. 

 

Put an EC clearly in their team name, let them race heads up all day long, then put a 1000 lap penalty on them for or the final hour/30 mins/lap. Then go drink some beer  and enjoy the high of racing. 

 

This sounds like the perfect solution to me. I personally like the EC cars both on track and in the standings so we know who we are on par with. This way broadcasters know who is EC, no issues with picking up the real leader, and the end results show that an EC car isn't atop the leaderboard.

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The NCM attempt to fix this did not work, so at Willow Springs we did the following:

 

-real leader was picked up, not an EC car.

-the broadcast crew is/was strongly encouraged to not talk about any EC cars.

-a couple of laps before the finish the EC cars were removed from the standings.

-in the final standings on Sunday on beehive, Race Monitor, etc, EC cars were removed.  Final standings Sunday are listed without EC.

 

Granted there was only one EC car there, but the plan is to replicate this for Indy.  In this manner EC cars are not polluting the final results, and do not get the advantages of being the "leader" during the race.  It's a start, let's see how it goes. 

 

As a Board we are still discussing how to handle EC next year.  Hard to believe, but the rules for next year have tone finished up in just a few months.  We will keep you posted.  

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53 minutes ago, Jer said:

The NCM attempt to fix this did not work, so at Willow Springs we did the following:

 

-real leader was picked up, not an EC car.

-the broadcast crew is/was strongly encouraged to not talk about any EC cars.

-a couple of laps before the finish the EC cars were removed from the standings.

-in the final standings on Sunday on beehive, Race Monitor, etc, EC cars were removed.  Final standings Sunday are listed without EC.

 

Granted there was only one EC car there, but the plan is to replicate this for Indy.  In this manner EC cars are not polluting the final results, and do not get the advantages of being the "leader" during the race.  It's a start, let's see how it goes. 

 

As a Board we are still discussing how to handle EC next year.  Hard to believe, but the rules for next year have tone finished up in just a few months.  We will keep you posted.  

Seems like a good compromise.

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Instead of removing them completely with laps to go subtract 100 laps from each EC car so at least we can see how we finished in comparison to other EC cars. This can be done after the completion of the race but before the results are uploaded to mylaps.

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

broadcast

 Didn’t get a chance to listen to that race, but, something to the effect of explaining EC cars are there “strictly for exhibition” most every time one is talked about could work, without compromising the broadcast ability to find things to speak about.

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5 hours ago, skierman64 said:

Instead of removing them completely with laps to go subtract 100 laps from each EC car so at least we can see how we finished in comparison to other EC cars. This can be done after the completion of the race but before the results are uploaded to mylaps.

I believe they will be scored separately with an EC only file as well, so you get what you stated.  Let's see how Indy goes as we work towards a good solution.  

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53 minutes ago, Jer said:

I believe they will be scored separately with an EC only file as well, so you get what you stated.  Let's see how Indy goes as we work towards a good solution.  

As long as you guys make it hard for a non-compliant car to say they "won Indy" I think the masses will be appeased

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8 hours ago, Jer said:

The NCM attempt to fix this did not work, so at Willow Springs we did the following:

 

-real leader was picked up, not an EC car.

-the broadcast crew is/was strongly encouraged to not talk about any EC cars.

-a couple of laps before the finish the EC cars were removed from the standings.

-in the final standings on Sunday on beehive, Race Monitor, etc, EC cars were removed.  Final standings Sunday are listed without EC.

 

Granted there was only one EC car there, but the plan is to replicate this for Indy.  In this manner EC cars are not polluting the final results, and do not get the advantages of being the "leader" during the race.  It's a start, let's see how it goes. 

 

As a Board we are still discussing how to handle EC next year.  Hard to believe, but the rules for next year have tone finished up in just a few months.  We will keep you posted.  

 

 

Willow Springs shouldn't be used an an example because it wasn't a race. It was 10 races lapping. There was no broadcast or need for a pace car besides the starting laps. West coast is DYING for an increase car count, Utah has car counts in single digit. Any changes to EC will just hurt us more

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Ok...
this is how it was done. and it worked well from our side of things. EC results show what the race would look like if EC counted. If you are an EC racer, just show that too your friends.
The official results are what you will use for Mazda Contingency, sponsors, bragging rights, and tall stories of why you suck so bad.

https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Events/1681734

Screen Shot 2019-07-03 at 5.19.54 PM.png

 

 

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Redacted post

Edited by FlorahDorah
Taking it offline...

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I still don’t understand why we can’t just give the EC cars -100 laps at the beginning of a race and be done with the issue. 

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3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

As long as you guys make it hard for a non-compliant car to say they "won Indy" I think the masses will be appeased

 

I won Indy. 

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1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

 

I won Indy. 

Not yet.

 

Either way, it will be good to hang out and see all my racing buddies!

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 I've never understood why the colour of the car is shown on Race Monitor/Race Hero and in the results. The colour of the car is the least relevant indicator of identification.

 

 It is so simple to put the class designations before the team names so that everyone (including the broadcasters) can identify the classes at a glance. You can even remove the make of the car, leave the model and add a couple of hyphens to clean things up even further.

 

Example:

 

C - Team Name - 1990 325i

B - Team Name - 1998 Neon

A - Team Name - 1991 Civic

D - Team Name - 1993 Mustang

EC - Team Name - 1998 325i

 

 

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Why dont we just run our own separate classes in Champcar?

We have our own awards ceremony. 

I would be interested in working with another owner to build 1 or 2 cars to match another existing owners car in performance. 

Owners own the series and collectively agree to limit throttle or detune cars to create door to door racing.

We can agree on pit timing and even cede drivers to match up skill sets so owners can jump in their respective cars to have a mid race friendly fender rub.

Lol all the rich people slumming their ecotec miatas 13.5:1 pistons running E85 trying to get by. 

Edited by AustinTX

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On Wednesday, July 03, 2019 at 4:58 PM, Jamie said:

 

 

Willow Springs shouldn't be used an an example because it wasn't a race. It was 10 races lapping. There was no broadcast or need for a pace car besides the starting laps. West coast is DYING for an increase car count, Utah has car counts in single digit. Any changes to EC will just hurt us more

Laguna doesn't seem to be dying.

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Northern California. Different state.

On 7/6/2019 at 5:43 PM, DEE DEE said:

Laguna doesn't seem to be dying.

 

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On 7/4/2019 at 1:04 PM, Richard said:

 I've never understood why the colour of the car is shown on Race Monitor/Race Hero and in the results. The colour of the car is the least relevant indicator of identification.

This is mainly how they are entered for timing and scoring's benefit when identifying cars, number and color are most useful.

Edited by morganf

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On 7/6/2019 at 11:07 AM, AustinTX said:

Lol all the rich people slumming their ecotec miatas 13.5:1 pistons running E85 trying to get by. 

I don't understand this, please explain?

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On 7/8/2019 at 9:04 PM, hotchkis23 said:

I don't understand this, please explain?

Sry, I should delete that whole post. It reads too idiot sarcastic and not tongue in cheek happy go lucky satirical.  

First off, thank you to everyone that makes champcar happen. 

I guess I was trying to say:

Champcar seems to me to already be an evolution from a giant mixed EC class, to multiple classes where owners and those dedicating personal time to the organization (thankless task) are creating structure and actual competition. 

I really like the posts about the mental and emotional growth opportunity that EC provides. A real onramp to class racing. This is huge. 

 

But even in the classes, you have people looking to game the technicals to simply have a more capable car. There are $20-30k+ cars showing up with very experienced drivers. They dont really want to ‘compete’ as much as just win if they can get a custom built $8k motor and $6k swap kit and say its all $600 junk yard motor and they built and installed everything themselves. Ehhhh... That instinct and behavior(not saying I dont have same urge) is counter productive to creating economical close class racing (what Im looking to do with like minded others). 

 

My dream would be realtime dynamic handicap control by the race stewards to create “capability” classes by car AND driver handicap tracking system. 

Throw out the Tech rules. They are stressful and a deterrent to someone just building out whatever car they have. 

Say you build whatever car you want: Well see what lap times it does; depending on rank of driver, we put it in a class based on lap time capability. Option to have a ‘class reference’ driver make some laps to aid classing the car ahead of the race start. 

If owner sandbags, car gets bumped up in class during race. 

Similar to how multidesign sailboat racing with handicaps works. 

This system sucks if you want to get a trophy for having the time and money to build a faster car than those less fortunate. 

 

I wasnt joking: I would love to get together with some other owners and build several cars all set up to have the same lap time capability. Possibly one design or various and tune the suspension and acceleration to be competitive with same skill drivers. Realtime throttle limit control for owners to collectively agree on if they want competitive racing or not. 

Imagine a 20 car pack of diverse chassis swapping and reswapping positions running door to door for laps on end. 

Entertaining for drivers, teams, viewers,...

Champcar is the future, not NASCAR. 

 

Join me, and together we will rule the motorsport universe......

 

Edited by AustinTX

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On 7/12/2019 at 10:16 PM, AustinTX said:

Sry, I should delete that whole post. It reads too idiot sarcastic and not tongue in cheek happy go lucky satirical.  

First off, thank you to everyone that makes champcar happen. 

I guess I was trying to say:

Champcar seems to me to already be an evolution from a giant mixed EC class, to multiple classes where owners and those dedicating personal time to the organization (thankless task) are creating structure and actual competition. 

I really like the posts about the mental and emotional growth opportunity that EC provides. A real onramp to class racing. This is huge. 

 

But even in the classes, you have people looking to game the technicals to simply have a more capable car. There are $20-30k+ cars showing up with very experienced drivers. They dont really want to ‘compete’ as much as just win if they can get a custom built $8k motor and $6k swap kit and say its all $600 junk yard motor and they built and installed everything themselves. Ehhhh... That instinct and behavior(not saying I dont have same urge) is counter productive to creating economical close class racing (what Im looking to do with like minded others). 

 

My dream would be realtime dynamic handicap control by the race stewards to create “capability” classes by car AND driver handicap tracking system. 

Throw out the Tech rules. They are stressful and a deterrent to someone just building out whatever car they have. 

Say you build whatever car you want: Well see what lap times it does; depending on rank of driver, we put it in a class based on lap time capability. Option to have a ‘class reference’ driver make some laps to aid classing the car ahead of the race start. 

If owner sandbags, car gets bumped up in class during race. 

Similar to how multidesign sailboat racing with handicaps works. 

This system sucks if you want to get a trophy for having the time and money to build a faster car than those less fortunate. 

 

I wasnt joking: I would love to get together with some other owners and build several cars all set up to have the same lap time capability. Possibly one design or various and tune the suspension and acceleration to be competitive with same skill drivers. Realtime throttle limit control for owners to collectively agree on if they want competitive racing or not. 

Imagine a 20 car pack of diverse chassis swapping and reswapping positions running door to door for laps on end. 

Entertaining for drivers, teams, viewers,...

Champcar is the future, not NASCAR. 

 

Join me, and together we will rule the motorsport universe......

 

 

Pretty sure you just described what amounts to AERs ruleset.

 

ChampCar will hopefully NEVER, and I can't say that loud enough, NEVER be the same as AER.  It shouldn't end up the same, it shouldn't strive to be the same.

 

At it's core CC is single class racing, and I just can't wrap my head around why so many people cant grasp why thats important.

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