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Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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2 hours ago, red0 said:

 

They get picked up as the leader in yellow flag situations, that can totally ruin a race for the teams that are actually racing. 

 

So champcar needs to do a better job of picking up the correct leader. They should know who is EC and not.

 

I think that is the solution.

 

2 hours ago, red0 said:

 

It's nothing like that, WRL is class racing (unfortunately) The champcar classes are arbitrary and not based on performance. They are not really classes, just arbitrary ways of giving out a few extra awards at a race. 

 

Champcar has 2 classes, EC and non-EC. That is how I see it.

 

 

 

It seems like this is a local problem to a few races?.I have never had any issues with EC in any Texas race, never heard anyone complain. Reading the comments, it seems like EC are very much needed to fill the spots in some areas. 

Maybe there could be local rules to fix the problems for those races? 

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48 minutes ago, chbright said:

 

So if an EC car is 100 laps or 97 down at the end of a race, how will that look to potential renters or possibly sponsors?  Instead of showing you completed the same amount of laps as the classified winner, you completed 100 (or 97 in the case of the Cayman) less. How will potential renters view that when picking which team to rent from based off the results page? 

 

1st it does not cast the EC guys into a 100 lap hole to explain away to renters or sponsors. 

 

Simply -100 laps on the EC results has ramifications to the EC guys more than just the top page of the results.

 

So you already have to explain to those who rent/sponsors that you run an EC car that isn't eligible for an overall win...maybe just a class win in EC if we have at least 5 cars.  How is that any different from explaining why you were put in a -100 lap hole for T&S purposes....unless you aren't explaining that to them in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

 

So you already have to explain to those who rent/sponsors that you run an EC car that isn't eligible for an overall win...maybe just a class win in EC if we have at least 5 cars.  How is that any different from explaining why you were put in a -100 lap hole for T&S purposes....unless you aren't explaining that to them in the first place.

 

We already beaten the horse to death that we currently can't tell who is EC and who is not right? If so, the Cayman - 100 lap  would appear  off track for  3hrs? As a renter why contact a team that looks to be off the track 3 hrs. 

 

Fix the classification, stop the  negative lap count.

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How about this?

EC cars never get trophies no matter how many have entered the race.

EC cars don't get transponders.  Since they're not part of the race and not competing for a trophy, why bother keeping track of them?

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21 minutes ago, erich said:

How about this?

EC cars never get trophies no matter how many have entered the race.

EC cars don't get transponders.  Since they're not part of the race and not competing for a trophy, why bother keeping track of them?

I know you meant this as green font.

 

That is how I actually feel about it.  Not saying we should, or that it's right.  

 

I don't understand building a car for ec.  

 

I am cool with those that do and don't mind sharing the track with them.  I am just too competitive to build a car without having a chance to win.

 

What is wrong with the minus 100 laps thing?  I haven't heard a good argument other than (paraphrasing) ... my renters and sponsers don't understand why we finished so far back....

 

Which, in reality, (by definition) those cars aren't even in the race except against each other.

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I've race ChampClass and I've raced EC.  They are two separate classes running a the same time.  You can use Race Monitor to separate the classes.  I don't even know why this is an issue.  If anything, lump A-D into one class on race monitor and EC into a separate class so they can be looked at easier your phone.  Although I've never found it difficult to weed them out when look at the standings.  

 

The formatting below on the multi-quote got messed up, but I wasn't going to retype it all, so my answers are in bold.  

 

 

 

Coach,there is nothing stopping you or any other ec  car from taking their points and entering.

 

True, but I don't want to start 27 laps down, that's why I choose EC.  I want to measure my performance against CC legal class cars.  Not for ego, just a measuring stick.  Let Race monitor sort out stuff by class or include EC in the names of all the EC cars.  

 

4 hours ago, Round3Racing said:

Can Race Hero or Race Monitor can run two events simultaneously?  If so, setup two separate events to run at the same time.  The ChampCar race and an EC race.  The EC cars get their own running order and T&S.  Race control would only use the ChampCar T&S for picking up the leader during FCY and the live broadcast would only use the ChampCar T&S.

 

Put A-D in one class and EC in another class.  It will still be easy to pick out who the class leader are at the end.  The displacement classifications are so arbitrary it doesn't mean much.  

 

3 hours ago, Jer said:

So basically EC teams enter races so they can whomp on teams that comply with the rules so they can beat their chests about how they "won" a race where they essentially cheated?  I do not believe this, but if some teams do this, then too bad IMHO.  Teams that just want to get into a race with other teams despite knowing they aren't really in the race should be fine with starting minus 100 laps.  After all, they aren't in the race anyway.  Out west, how many EC teams are running so they can beat their chest about their win? 

 

I frankly don't see this as a big deal.  Our series is built around one ruleset where the whole field of teams that follow the rules have a chance.   If teams want to bring cars that are way outside the ruleset to an event to beat up on everyone else, well frankly, I'm not excited to have them in the field anyway.  Keep in mind the races with the most EC cars (WGI, Daytona, Road Atlanta and Indianapolis) all sell out.  If a few EC cars walk away because they want to "win" and now they can't, well that just allows more qualified teams into the event. 

 

And please remember I consider the business side of this way more (I believe) than the rest of the Board, save Mike.  I understand the dollars and cents and carefully consider the consequences of actions taken on our financials.  

 

Jer, not at all.  I have no interest in whooping on CC legal cars but I do enjoy viewing other teams of measuring sticks of performance.  Use race monitor to separate the classes as it's designed to do.  
"Cheated" really?   There's no cheating going on, the cars are built to a different standard just like in IMSA with 4 classes racing together.  

 

3 hours ago, Snake said:

EC cars help pay the bills, period.  Being inclusive vs. exclusive is how the series has been become popular and successful.   As @Jamie pointed out in the other thread the west coast cannot afford to push anyone else away.   The series has been begging the cars that converted to LD rules to come back and race EC.    Excluding them ends that.   Minus 100 laps probably ends that as well.  Just put yourself in their shoes, you wouldn't like it and wouldn't think it's fair.  Thus, you looking elsewhere to race.    

 

1.  If we wanna force everyone to take their full points, that's a discussion to have.    (What do we do with cars over their fuel limit, force them to displace or not run?)  

 

2. If we wanna limit EC cars at certain races that's a discussion to have.

 

3. If we wanna ban EC cars at certain races that's a discussion to have.    (Keep in mind, Indy is not the norm and we can't go changing series rules for a single race just because you wanna race it)  The only other race I could see banning EC cars is the National Championship.   But in general, I don't think its a good idea. 

 

4. There's a ton of options but I personally don't see a problem with the EC cars and don't really think anything is wrong.    We know we aren't racing them, maybe others need to figure that out too.

 

1. No, most EC cars have the options to take points vs going EC.  they choose EC

2.  Why?

3. Why?  first come first served.  

4. Exactly

 

2 hours ago, Jab31169 said:

 

As someone else already mentioned a bunch....the -100 is just a placeholder in the standings.  If they want to see how the car does against the entire field, add 100 laps from your current position from where you currently sit and that will tell you.  It's pretty much the same thing they get now, but they are just pushed to the bottom of T&S.  If an EC car doesn't like that, take your actual score and laps and run it that way outside of EC.

 

If EC is never going to be eligible for an overall, why are we worried about whats fair?  They are already in the unofficial unlimited class...which isn't fair to everyone else who built a car within the ruleset.

 

minus 100 would suck for EC. I don't want to be at the bottom of standings the entire race.  Just put EC in its own class on Racemonitor and the sort it by class.  Put A-D in one class (for race monitor purposes) and EC in a second class.  The A-D trophies are silly anyhow, the current A-D via displacement isn't a measure of performance.  

 

2 hours ago, turbogrill said:

Why is this a problem? EC class is a different class. If they beat you it doesn't count.

 

Just like if a GP1 beats a GP4 car in WRL. Just like if 240 lbs weight lifter lifts more than a 121 lb weight lifter.

 

The app shows the class. Maybe champcar could do a better job showing what car belongs to what classes.

 

 

Exactly.  

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This discussion...

source.gif

 

2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

What is wrong with the minus 100 laps thing?  I haven't heard a good argument other than (paraphrasing) ... my renters and sponsers don't understand why we finished so far back....

 

Which, in reality, (by definition) those cars aren't even in the race except against each other.

 

tenor.gif?itemid=6046496

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43 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

 

So you already have to explain to those who rent/sponsors that you run an EC car that isn't eligible for an overall win...maybe just a class win in EC if we have at least 5 cars.  How is that any different from explaining why you were put in a -100 lap hole for T&S purposes....unless you aren't explaining that to them in the first place.

 

Even in EC, I still want to compare myself against the competition, even if we are in different classes, it's a measuring stick.  

 

28 minutes ago, erich said:

How about this?

EC cars never get trophies no matter how many have entered the race.

EC cars don't get transponders.  Since they're not part of the race and not competing for a trophy, why bother keeping track of them?

 

Then i'm not even showing up.  I could save a lot of money and go do a DE.  EC still want to be measured against other EC cars and also to the rules compliant cars.  

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5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I know you meant this as green font.

 

That is how I actually feel about it.  Not saying we should, or that it's right.  

 

I don't understand building a car for ec.  

 

I am cool with those that do and don't mind sharing the track with them.  I am just too competitive to build a car without having a chance to win.

 

What is wrong with the minus 100 laps thing?  I haven't heard a good argument other than (paraphrasing) ... my renters and sponsers don't understand why we finished so far back....

 

Which, in reality, (by definition) those cars aren't even in the race except against each other.

 

2 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

  

tenor.gif?itemid=6046496

 

WV is right, although I can see setting up 2 races on race monitor and then basically ignoring the EC race for pace cars and checkered flag etc. That could be better. 

 

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4 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

WV is right, although I can see setting up 2 races on race monitor and then basically ignoring the EC race for pace cars and checkered flag etc. That could be better. 

 

 

Im down for this if possible

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13 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Even in EC, I still want to compare myself against the competition, even if we are in different classes, it's a measuring stick.  

 

 

Then i'm not even showing up.  I could save a lot of money and go do a DE.  EC still want to be measured against other EC cars and also to the rules compliant cars.  

I understand this and would feel the same way.  However, can't you just add 100 laps to your total and see where you would be?

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3 hours ago, Round3Racing said:

Maybe it is the "negative laps" that sounds bad.  So, let's start all EC cars with 0 laps.  All A,B,C,D cars start with 100 laps.  They get 100 lap bonus for playing by the rules.

Same difference, lol. Whatever makes them feel better.  They are not starting laps down really,  it's just a way that it is entered into timing and scoring to keep them grouped together and not all mixed up.  They would still change positions  normally within their EC class. If I were an EC car, wouldn't bother me a bit, doesnt change a single thing other than make it easier to see where I'm running amongst other EC cars.  And if I really needed to pad my ego,  I could just add the adjustment laps to see where I stand overall. Very simple concept!   I can't understand how it would sway any team a way, nothing changes. They already can't win an overall. Nothing new there.  I dont advocate restricting EC entries at all. Keep that as is.

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10 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

There's no cheating going on, the cars are built to a different standard just like in IMSA with 4 classes racing together. 

 So IMSA would be cool if Porsche showed up and ran the 919 Hybrid?  Hell, I'd bring the 919 Evo if that was the case.  

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31 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Then i'm not even showing up.  I could save a lot of money and go do a DE.  

 

How is a DE where you get to run four 25 minute sessions with regulated passing at all comparable with 8-24 hour wheel-to-wheel endurance racing?

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8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I understand this and would feel the same way.  However, can't you just add 100 laps to your total and see where you would be?

Why can't an EC team add the correction factor of laps to see where they'd be amongst the field?  We all can do easy math,  doesnt seem that hard, what am I missing?

 

No need to run a seperate timing and scoring event, that seems cumbersome and unnecessary. Just list their classification at the bottom (accomplished by admin.....apply a correction factor of 1000 ).    

 

The argument that a handful of EC renters now have to be explained why their team had a 1000 lap penalty seems much more simple and easy than the majority (70+ teams) that have to explain to their renters, fans, sponsors  (Will's case GWR) why they finished where they did despite a handful of non-competing "competing" cars all mixed in.  Silly!  

 

I always thought the purpose of EC was to be inclusive of cars that didnt quite fit the existing rules, and allow them to share the track with us, but not to interfere/challenge with the competing class conforming cars.  They understand that I'm sure.  Do EC cars really run to win the Overall against Handicapped cars?  Doubtful.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

Then i'm not even showing up.  I could save a lot of money and go do a DE.  EC still want to be measured against other EC cars and also to the rules compliant cars.  

 

Strange, I save money on DEs by going to WRL races.  More track time per dollar, less traffic, and you don't have to wait for point-bys.  Enduro races are a steal for track time, especially the less attended ones.  I have no problem with EC cars using CCES races as track days, just don't let them screw up the standings for the people who are actually racing.

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51 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I understand this and would feel the same way.  However, can't you just add 100 laps to your total and see where you would be?


Sure, unless I'm on the same lap as a team I'm having fun competing with, then I'm trying to do mental gyrations to figure it out, throw in a FCY or pitstop sequence and it makes it harder.  The scoring system already separates the different classes, just use it as designed. 

 

Can't you just exclude the EC cars near you in Race Monitor since you're not racing them for position? 
 

31 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

 

How is a DE where you get to run four 25 minute sessions with regulated passing at all comparable with 8-24 hour wheel-to-wheel endurance racing?

 

I'm not coming W2W if I'm not being scored.  The idea of not scoring the EC class cars is absurd.  

 

22 minutes ago, Hi_Im_Will said:

 

Strange, I save money on DEs by going to WRL races.  More track time per dollar, less traffic, and you don't have to wait for point-bys.  Enduro races are a steal for track time, especially the less attended ones.  I have no problem with EC cars using CCES races as track days, just don't let them screw up the standings for the people who are actually racing.

 

At a DE, my tires last all season, I don't have find 3 other drivers willing to put in the time and money.  I come to compete, even if I'm in a different class I can still use others as a measuring stick.  Both Race Hero and Race Monitor have the ability to separate classes easily.  All we need to do is use that feature.  There's really nothing wrong with the current system.  If ChampCar is letting cars in that are too fast, there's a way to fix that and it's already in the rule book (or at least it used to be). 

 

Edited by skierman64
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the idea of an EC class where there are basically no rules competing with the field is absurd.

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Just for fun,  Overall from T&S for the following races*

 

7 EC cars at Road ATL, none in top 10

 

6 EC cars at Road America,  2 in the top 10 on Friday, 3 in top 10 on saturday with p1, p2, p3 EC cars

 

27 EC cars at Daytona , 3 in the top 10, p1, p5, p6 

 

6 EC cars at Charlotte

 

11 EC cars at Watkins, 4 in Top 10, p1 p5, p9, p10 on Saturday, 9 EC cars on Sunday, 2 in top 10, p1, p5 

 

*DISCLAIMER* - I did this off my phone, so facts may be 90-99% correctish

Edited by Jab31169
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10 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

Just for fun,  Overall from T&S for the following races*

 

7 EC cars at Road ATL, none in top 10

 

6 EC cars at Road America,  2 in the top 10 on Friday, 3 in top 10 on saturday with p1 and p3 EC cars

 

27 EC cars at Daytona , 3 in the top 10, p1, p5, p6 

 

6 EC cars at Charlotte

 

11 EC cars at Watkins, 4 in Top 10, p1 p5, p9, p10 on Saturday, 9 EC cars on Sunday, 2 in top 10, p1, p5 

 

*DISCLAIMER* - I did this off my phone, so facts may be 90-99% correctish

EC took 1, 2, 3 on Saturday at Road America. Live commentators were tripping over themselves all day to correctly update viewers on the real podium positions. “...In 7th place we have Premium Dudes, but remember that’s actually 3rd place on the podium”

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I went to Race Hero directly and asked them if we could run 2 events simultaneously at the same track, using the same T&S loop.  Here is the answer:

 

Yes.  Create two events in Orbits, set them up how you like with each race having (the EC or ChampCar) cars muted. Then backup and restore into your second Orbits. Have two copies of the RaceHero Relay, one connected to each, and broadcast accordingly. 
 
On RaceHero you’ll see two events, each broadcasting only the race you care about. 
 
BAM!  Done.
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3 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

I went to Race Hero directly and asked them if we could run 2 events simultaneously at the same track, using the same T&S loop.  Here is the answer:

 

Yes.  Create two events in Orbits, set them up how you like with each race having (the EC or ChampCar) cars muted. Then backup and restore into your second Orbits. Have two copies of the RaceHero Relay, one connected to each, and broadcast accordingly. 
 
On RaceHero you’ll see two events, each broadcasting only the race you care about. 
 
BAM!  Done.

 

Now go check with Race Monitor and Speedhive (I think speedhive will catalog as two events...but I dunno)

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4 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

I went to Race Hero directly and asked them if we could run 2 events simultaneously at the same track, using the same T&S loop.  Here is the answer:

 

Yes.  Create two events in Orbits, set them up how you like with each race having (the EC or ChampCar) cars muted. Then backup and restore into your second Orbits. Have two copies of the RaceHero Relay, one connected to each, and broadcast accordingly. 
 
On RaceHero you’ll see two events, each broadcasting only the race you care about. 
 
BAM!  Done.

RaceHero has a hard enough time handling 1 event. It didn't work at all on Sunday at WGI. 

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5 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

 

Now go check with Race Monitor and Speedhive (I think speedhive will catalog as two events...but I dunno)

 

Done.  Emails sent to both.  Will report back with their answers.

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5 minutes ago, B-Rad said:

RaceHero has a hard enough time handling 1 event. It didn't work at all on Sunday at WGI. 

 

"I'm bettin' you is a glass is half empty kinda guy.  Am I right?"

 

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