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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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25 minutes ago, Richard said:

Let's run the short track at Calabogie in 2020 just to even it up for a day.

 

Edit: sometimes I am trolling...

 

Count me in! We just ran it this past weekend. I like the stadium track actually, Has a good flow to it. Maxima KIND OF held its own but certainly those slow sections don't do us any favours! Working LSD for next year and we should be much better off. 

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1 hour ago, Richard said:

Good Lord, a C class E30/E36 with 190hp that is roughly 160whp is exactly what I meant when I said A class cars will need 185hp to be competitive anywhere.

Oh, my bad. I always think (and write) in terms of wheel horsepower. Every car that I've driven uses wheels and I have yet to see an engine on a stand push a race car :rolleyes:

Edited by enginerd
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10 hours ago, enginerd said:

Oh, my bad. I always think (and write) in terms of wheel horsepower. Every car that I've driven uses wheels and I have yet to see an engine on a stand push a race car :rolleyes:

Most race engines that I build get run in and tested on an engine dyno before getting installed in the race car. ;)

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Wished I had joined this dialog earlier but still our opinion as a longtime/multi-time class winning EC car team (I am co-owner and team founder) here is our take:

First on the outlier EC cars (i.e. ex-Pirelli/WC/Conti cars, high-end AER/WRL/NASA/SCCA/Club Cars): I remember when we (MPR) first started in CC in 2013. I asked Mike C about racing my then NASA GTS2 Boxster and was told no due to performance differential. My how we have changed over the years. That is the same car with less mods that won this weekend overall at Nelson in C-class! Totally agree on removing the outlier cars from racing altogether, very dangerous as I have stated to CC leadership in the past.

 

As red stated very early in the thread>

Quote

It's nothing like that, WRL is class racing, unfortunately the CC classes are arbitrary and not based on performance. They are not really classes, just arbitrary ways of giving out a few extra awards at a race.

 

I have to echo this as we all perceive the rules are "different" for many cars. We are a GP2 car in WRL. We have raced in WRL against CC C-class fast cars and have even battles. Although if we class our car in CC C-class we would be some 30 laps back in class even though our car gets routinely dragged by these "top" C-class cars in a straight line at Road Atlanta and Sebring (800 lb gorilla in the room that we all ignore) as direct evidence of Red's statement. We do like to race across the borders as it fits best with our team's ability and schedules. Thus we have to balance the rule books to be competitive. I understand that this is not CC's prerogative but it remains the case for many teams.

 

If we are going to have provisional EC entries then we will mostly likely say good bye to CC. 

 

As many other EC teams have stated we do not like the de-emphasis either. We understand the overall placement issue but not that the fact that we are indeed in a race and racing our fellow EC teams and that should be recognized. We are there to race, hopefully win a trophy (if we have have the entries to so so) just not turn laps. We also appreciate the mention on the broadcasts.

 

Ideally we would like to run in C-class but not 30 laps back. We understand the rules and that is why we race EC. In the end we would like CC to adopt more consistent classed based racing like NASA GTS and other endurance series. We know that will not happen. I would put forth that if CC adopted this it would make more money due to more teams crossing the "borders" being able to win a CC race. No other endurance series has a such a "unique" foundation for the rules like CC and that is a fact. But if that cannot happen what about reevaluation the penalties to make cars just outside the rules more competitive. If we could be 5 laps back and not 30 we would most likely go back in class with the penalty. All that being stated there is no simple answer.

Edited by AtlJimK
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39 minutes ago, AtlJimK said:

Ideally we would like to run in C-class but not 30 laps back. We understand the rules and that is why we race EC. In the end we would like CC to adopt more consistent classed based racing like NASA GTS and other endurance series. We know that will not happen. I would put forth that if CC adopted this it would make more money due to more teams crossing the "borders" being able to win a CC race. No other endurance series has a such a "unique" foundation for the rules like CC and that is a fact. But if that cannot happen what about reevaluation the penalties to make cars just outside the rules more competitive. If we could be 5 laps back and not 30 we would most likely go back in class with the penalty. All that being stated there is no simple answer.

Not sure what your build is.  Can you remove things to reduce your points and therefore laps?  Things other cars like your don't have?

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18 hours ago, AtlJimK said:

Wished I had joined this dialog earlier but still our opinion as a longtime/multi-time class winning EC car team (I am co-owner and team founder) here is our take:

First on the outlier EC cars (i.e. ex-Pirelli/WC/Conti cars, high-end AER/WRL/NASA/SCCA/Club Cars): I remember when we (MPR) first started in CC in 2013. I asked Mike C about racing my then NASA GTS2 Boxster and was told no due to performance differential. My how we have changed over the years. That is the same car with less mods that won this weekend overall at Nelson in C-class! Totally agree on removing the outlier cars from racing altogether, very dangerous as I have stated to CC leadership in the past.

 

As red stated very early in the thread>

 

I have to echo this as we all perceive the rules are "different" for many cars. We are a GP2 car in WRL. We have raced in WRL against CC C-class fast cars and have even battles. Although if we class our car in CC C-class we would be some 30 laps back in class even though our car gets routinely dragged by these "top" C-class cars in a straight line at Road Atlanta and Sebring (800 lb gorilla in the room that we all ignore) as direct evidence of Red's statement. We do like to race across the borders as it fits best with our team's ability and schedules. Thus we have to balance the rule books to be competitive. I understand that this is not CC's prerogative but it remains the case for many teams.

 

If we are going to have provisional EC entries then we will mostly likely say good bye to CC. 

 

As many other EC teams have stated we do not like the de-emphasis either. We understand the overall placement issue but not that the fact that we are indeed in a race and racing our fellow EC teams and that should be recognized. We are there to race, hopefully win a trophy (if we have have the entries to so so) just not turn laps. We also appreciate the mention on the broadcasts.

 

Ideally we would like to run in C-class but not 30 laps back. We understand the rules and that is why we race EC. In the end we would like CC to adopt more consistent classed based racing like NASA GTS and other endurance series. We know that will not happen. I would put forth that if CC adopted this it would make more money due to more teams crossing the "borders" being able to win a CC race. No other endurance series has a such a "unique" foundation for the rules like CC and that is a fact. But if that cannot happen what about reevaluation the penalties to make cars just outside the rules more competitive. If we could be 5 laps back and not 30 we would most likely go back in class with the penalty. All that being stated there is no simple answer.

 

How expensive would it be for all the other teams who are compliant with CC rules to meet your (theoretical) proposed inclusion rules for your car (and other EC cars)?  If I wanted to spend the money to build a GTS car I would, I chose to build a car for a lower cost series because it meant more money for racing. If you truly desire to win a CC race, why not build a CC legal car?

 

I see people pointing to speed as a reason why EC cars should be included since current C class (or other) cars are just as fast.  It's not just absolute speed, it's the reliability mods or huge fuel cells, or fully adjustable suspension, or.... that make the car better for endurance racing.  If I'm faster than you but need to stop for fuel more times than you, who might win in the end?  If I'm faster than you but can't get ideal camber for tire wear but you can, who wins in the end?  If I'm faster than you but my engine grenades because I can't add reliability mods, who wins?

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I field class cars and an EC car. Start the EC cars 1000 laps down so that they have their own group to run in that does not clutter the running order. Yes I like seeing my EC car high up in the running order, but for the good of the series long term, I am good with it staying classified far away from the "real race". Worst thing that happens is that more cars convert from EC to the regular classes. 

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If I actually make it back to CC next spring, it's going to be in EC for the simple fact that my car is nearly 30 years old, and the absolute newest RWD compatible motor I can put in within the swap math is more than 20 years old. I go one year newer and suddenly I'm over 500 points without ANY other parts.

 

So screw it, I wanna race, not spend weeks rebuilding a questionable junkyard family sedan motor (or worse, another truck motor), so I'm putting in a nice low mileage swap and run EC with an otherwise totally CC legal car. 

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On 9/13/2019 at 11:54 AM, Gearhead_42 said:

If I actually make it back to CC next spring, it's going to be in EC for the simple fact that my car is nearly 30 years old, and the absolute newest RWD compatible motor I can put in within the swap math is more than 20 years old. I go one year newer and suddenly I'm over 500 points without ANY other parts.

 

So screw it, I wanna race, not spend weeks rebuilding a questionable junkyard family sedan motor (or worse, another truck motor), so I'm putting in a nice low mileage swap and run EC with an otherwise totally CC legal car. 

Have you looked into the QR25DE from a Frontier ? Same trans too just need the front half of the bell housing.

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On 9/14/2019 at 3:27 PM, morganf said:

Have you looked into the QR25DE from a Frontier ? Same trans too just need the front half of the bell housing.

 

Yeah, it's on the list of possibilities, might still try it but the VQ series is so much better understood in race environments.  Though I suppose I could look to the Sentra/Altima crowd for inspiration.

 

Not to mention they are going for 2x the price of the VQ i'm planning, and 4-5x the price of the FWD QR motors

Edited by Gearhead_42

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31 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

 

Yeah, it's on the list of possibilities, might still try it but the VQ series is so much better understood in race environments.  Though I suppose I could look to the Sentra/Altima crowd for inspiration.

 

Not to mention they are going for 2x the price of the VQ i'm planning, and 4-5x the price of the FWD QR motors

Gm 60 degree v6?

 

Can ya tell I like them?

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22 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Gm 60 degree v6?

 

Can ya tell I like them?

Hell, if I were going to install a GM engine I'd just drop in the L33 V8 I've got on the stand next to the car 😉

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On 9/17/2019 at 8:14 PM, Gearhead_42 said:

 

Yeah, it's on the list of possibilities, might still try it but the VQ series is so much better understood in race environments. 

 

Understood to be awful? ;)

The early VQs have lots of issues. Nothing you can't work through though but they love to consume oil, lose oil pressure and spin bearings.

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On 9/13/2019 at 9:54 AM, Gearhead_42 said:

If I actually make it back to CC next spring, it's going to be in EC for the simple fact that my car is nearly 30 years old, and the absolute newest RWD compatible motor I can put in within the swap math is more than 20 years old. I go one year newer and suddenly I'm over 500 points without ANY other parts.

 

So screw it, I wanna race, not spend weeks rebuilding a questionable junkyard family sedan motor (or worse, another truck motor), so I'm putting in a nice low mileage swap and run EC with an otherwise totally CC legal car. 

And you're one of the reasons why we are keeping EC around.  I think we found our balance too.  

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On 5/30/2019 at 11:03 AM, Jer said:

We are not WRL and won't ever be.   We will not be class racing until you replace the entire Board and CEO with people wanting class racing as the focus.  Currently not one Board member is in favor of this that I know of.  We have defined our series as a single race, and although some prefer class racing, most do not. This is what makes our series unique.  Sorry, not sorry.  

 

I haven't made it to page 30 of this thread yet, just started diving into this today; but, can you please read your rules and then re-read this? Why are there different classes if CC isn't "class racing?" Why are there trophies handed out to each "class winner?" Why does T&S have the option to view class standings (in RaceHero)? Why do I have to run my car with the class letter assignment from every viewing angle? Etc

 

If CC truly isn't about class racing then why not just make the race a "run whatcha brung" and let it be a free-for-all to the finish? No classes, no points, no -100 laps, and so on. That would solve this whole EC issue and just have one massive field vying for the overall victory. 

 

The class option is what drew us into CC 6 years ago. We could build a cheap to run/maintain car and try (emphasis on try) to compete for a class victory even though our only goal is to go out and have fun. It's what keeps us coming back to CC even when you scraped class trophies for a while. I'm not sure what demographic you're pulling this statistic that "no one cares about class racing from" but it's pretty far from the truth. I'm pretty sure HPD cares about class wins with their incentive program. I'm sure Mazda cares about class wins for their marketing. and so on. 

 

I understand your main focus is about the overall victor and top 5 finishers but if you're not about class racing then you guys might want to re-address your rule book. 

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1 hour ago, dirtybird222 said:

 

I haven't made it to page 30 of this thread yet, just started diving into this today; but, can you please read your rules and then re-read this? Why are there different classes if CC isn't "class racing?" Why are there trophies handed out to each "class winner?" Why does T&S have the option to view class standings (in RaceHero)? Why do I have to run my car with the class letter assignment from every viewing angle? Etc

 

If CC truly isn't about class racing then why not just make the race a "run whatcha brung" and let it be a free-for-all to the finish? No classes, no points, no -100 laps, and so on. That would solve this whole EC issue and just have one massive field vying for the overall victory. 

 

The class option is what drew us into CC 6 years ago. We could build a cheap to run/maintain car and try (emphasis on try) to compete for a class victory even though our only goal is to go out and have fun. It's what keeps us coming back to CC even when you scraped class trophies for a while. I'm not sure what demographic you're pulling this statistic that "no one cares about class racing from" but it's pretty far from the truth. I'm pretty sure HPD cares about class wins with their incentive program. I'm sure Mazda cares about class wins for their marketing. and so on. 

 

I understand your main focus is about the overall victor and top 5 finishers but if you're not about class racing then you guys might want to re-address your rule book. 

What people mean when they say that ChampCar isn’t class racing is that the classes don’t pick the winner. Yes, there are classes, but it has everything to do with grouping cars with similar characteristics rather than grouping cars that are fast / slow / moderate. D-class are usually American v8s, A-class are usually Honda’s and Miatas, you get the picture. All classes of cars have won / podiumed / led many times. 

 

You cant look at the stickers on a ChampCar and say “yup, that guy will be at the front, he’s A class, and this guy doesn’t stand a chance at winning because he is in this other class”, it doesn’t work like that.

 

Except for EC, EC is actually a class which means “doesn’t fit the rulebook, out here for the love of racing”.

 

You can still race for your class win and take pride in beating the subset of the field that are most similar to your own car. At some venues there are clear advantages/disadvantages for a class... I wouldn’t take a big D car to Gingerman, and I wouldn’t take a small A car to Daytona. 

Edited by enginerd

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1 hour ago, dirtybird222 said:

 

I haven't made it to page 30 of this thread yet, just started diving into this today; but, can you please read your rules and then re-read this? Why are there different classes if CC isn't "class racing?" Why are there trophies handed out to each "class winner?" Why does T&S have the option to view class standings (in RaceHero)? Why do I have to run my car with the class letter assignment from every viewing angle? Etc

 

If CC truly isn't about class racing then why not just make the race a "run whatcha brung" and let it be a free-for-all to the finish? No classes, no points, no -100 laps, and so on. That would solve this whole EC issue and just have one massive field vying for the overall victory. 

 

The class option is what drew us into CC 6 years ago. We could build a cheap to run/maintain car and try (emphasis on try) to compete for a class victory even though our only goal is to go out and have fun. It's what keeps us coming back to CC even when you scraped class trophies for a while. I'm not sure what demographic you're pulling this statistic that "no one cares about class racing from" but it's pretty far from the truth. I'm pretty sure HPD cares about class wins with their incentive program. I'm sure Mazda cares about class wins for their marketing. and so on. 

 

I understand your main focus is about the overall victor and top 5 finishers but if you're not about class racing then you guys might want to re-address your rule book. 

This has been addressed in so many threads, but here is an extremely abbreviated version of an answer.  Classes started with short-lived sprint racing.  They somehow were kept around but never emphasized.  As a Board we talked about restructuring them in a more meaningful manner, but that would just upset people who have built to a class.  So we leave it in the rules, but rarely discuss it and if you win your class, you get little bitty trophies.  And some bragging rights.  It hurts nothing so we leave it in.  Besides, who hasn't had a poor day but looks through the standings, sees your team is 24th but hey, 2nd in class!  yay!  Like I said, hurts nothing and some people like it.  So there it is.  The big prize is the overall podium or win.  I'm more proud of the gigantic overall win trophies in my office than I would be of a closet full of class win trophies.  

Edited by Jer
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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Ben's car?

Yep. Saw some of your handiwork on that splitter, huh!

Edited by mcoppola

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13 hours ago, Jer said:

This has been addressed in so many threads, but here is an extremely abbreviated version of an answer.  Classes started with short-lived sprint racing.  They somehow were kept around but never emphasized.  As a Board we talked about restructuring them in a more meaningful manner, but that would just upset people who have built to a class.  So we leave it in the rules, but rarely discuss it and if you win your class, you get little bitty trophies.  And some bragging rights.  It hurts nothing so we leave it in.  Besides, who hasn't had a poor day but looks through the standings, sees your team is 24th but hey, 2nd in class!  yay!  Like I said, hurts nothing and some people like it.  So there it is.  The big prize is the overall podium or win.  I'm more proud of the gigantic overall win trophies in my office than I would be of a closet full of class win trophies.  

 

Well said! 

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