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Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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3 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

 

"I'm bettin' you is a glass is half empty kinda guy.  Am I right?"

 

groundhogday2.png

Just stating the facts 😀

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1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

I'm not coming W2W if I'm not being scored.  The idea of not scoring the EC class cars is absurd.

 

Who said you wouldn't be scored?

All your laps, laptimes, fastest lap, pit stops, etc would be recorded as usual, and even your position within your EC class would be correct.  Only difference is the Experimental EC cars would be listed down below all the ABCD classes cars competing for the overall.  EC guys would still be recognized with a trophy for EC class winner (5 or more entries).

And you could still VERY easily figure out your overall position if that was your concern.

 

IMO,This just gives more clarity/recognition to the true overall winners in classed cars(as the series is intended), and less confusion in the display of the T&S throughout the race.

 

Doesnt exclude anyone, or change anything to the EC procedures  that are already in place.  Just a simple display format change within T&S. 

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1 hour ago, Round3Racing said:

I went to Race Hero directly and asked them if we could run 2 events simultaneously at the same track, using the same T&S loop.  Here is the answer:

 

Yes.  Create two events in Orbits, set them up how you like with each race having (the EC or ChampCar) cars muted. Then backup and restore into your second Orbits. Have two copies of the RaceHero Relay, one connected to each, and broadcast accordingly. 
 
On RaceHero you’ll see two events, each broadcasting only the race you care about. 
 
BAM!  Done.

 

You are the man. Everyone wins here.

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Guys Mike C is looking into a solution as discussed, he was on this way before you all.  

 

Mike S, I like your solution of classifying qualified cars together, that could be what is shown in the broadcast and talked about, as well as used to determine the leader.  Those looking to see where they are "in class" (A-D) could still count down.  But anyone clicking on results after the fact would still assume some car way overbuilt for the rules won in retrospect.  Frankly, it bothers me to see EC cars listed 1, 2 and 3 when none of them should be listed as winners in the final results.  I still prefer the 100, 500 or whatever lap penalty and make those poor EC owners add 100 to the lap count.  That doesn't seem very hard to do.  If those teams are trying to sell they "won a race" to sponsors and ride buyers, they are lying anyway.  

 

Normally I'm not this opinionated, but EC has taken on a life of it's own recently and some action needs to be taken to be fair to the teams playing by the rules.  And no, I'm certain the Board would never take the step of not tracking EC laps/times. 

Edited by Jer
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9 minutes ago, chbright said:

 

You are the man. Everyone wins here.

And then drop the one with EC included in the historical records?

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3 hours ago, skierman64 said:

minus 100 would suck for EC. I don't want to be at the bottom of standings the entire race.  Just put EC in its own class on Racemonitor and the sort it by class.  Put A-D in one class (for race monitor purposes) and EC in a second class.  The A-D trophies are silly anyhow, the current A-D via displacement isn't a measure of performance.  

 

" I dont wanna be at the bottom of the standings the entire race...."

 

Your joking right?  So creating a seperate listing on RaceMonitor display would make you feel better?

 

2 lists within One Race vs. 1 list with 2 Races. Potato vs. Patado

 

How is it not just as easy to scroll down  below on the same page/list and see where you stand on the EC group.  If you are the first EC car listed then you are leading the EC group my friend.  2nd car listed is 2nd.....not rocket surgery.  If you wanna see where you are overall, simply look at your completed laps and compare that to the cars above....super easy.  

 

I think creating a seperate race for EC cars on RaceMonitor would be even more exclusionary, cumbersome and confusing than keeping them on one list. But if seeing your name P1 on a seperate list of 5 cars is easier on the ego than seeing it listed as the leading EC car at P70 out 75 cars...then to each their own.  Not sure the difference?

 

Seems to me it would be easier for the minority 5 EC teams to calculate their overall position( if they actually cared), vs the majority 70+ teams having to sift through the list (-deducting EC teams), to figure out their overall position?  It's been proven to confuse broadcast staff, officials,  pacecar, other teams, and fans.   Why do it the hard way.....Again what am I missing? 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Shane G.
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1 hour ago, theblue said:

the idea of an EC class where there are basically no rules competing with the field is absurd.

 

They aren't completing...they are in a different class.  Ever watch IMSA on TV?

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51 minutes ago, Shane G. said:

 

Who said you wouldn't be scored?

All your laps, laptimes, fastest lap, pit stops, etc would be recorded as usual, and even your position within your EC class would be correct.  Only difference is the Experimental EC cars would be listed down below all the ABCD classes cars competing for the overall.  EC guys would still be recognized with a trophy for EC class winner (5 or more entries).

And you could still VERY easily figure out your overall position if that was your concern.

 

IMO,This just gives more clarity/recognition to the true overall winners in classed cars(as the series is intended), and less confusion in the display of the T&S throughout the race.

 

Doesnt exclude anyone, or change anything to the EC procedures  that are already in place.  Just a simple display format change within T&S. 

 

My comment was about the person that said not to put transponders on the EC cars.  

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30 minutes ago, Jer said:

Guys Mike C is looking into a solution as discussed, he was on this way before you all.  

 

Mike S, I like your solution of classifying qualified cars together, that could be what is shown in the broadcast and talked about, as well as used to determine the leader.  Those looking to see where they are "in class" (A-D) could still count down.  But anyone clicking on results after the fact would still assume some car way overbuilt for the rules won in retrospect.  Frankly, it bothers me to see EC cars listed 1, 2 and 3 when none of them should be listed as winners in the final results.  I still prefer the 100, 500 or whatever lap penalty and make those poor EC owners add 100 to the lap count.  That doesn't seem very hard to do.  If those teams are trying to sell they "won a race" to sponsors and ride buyers, they are lying anyway.  

 

Normally I'm not this opinionated, but EC has taken on a life of it's own recently and some action needs to be taken to be fair to the teams playing by the rules.  And no, I'm certain the Board would never take the step of not tracking EC laps/times. 

 

Not true, you can look at the final results by class and separate out the EC cars.  

Were the Eclipses at The Glen EC or Champ Class?  

Edited by skierman64

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Just now, skierman64 said:

 

Not true, you can look at the final results by class and separate out the EC cars.  

There's only one overall result and it includes the EC cars.  No one is selling class wins to sponsors that I know of.  

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Answer from Mike Weatherman (support@race-monitor.com) from Race Monitor:

 

The short answer is Yes, you can run multiple events at the same time. 

 

Two down, one to go.  SpeedHive is in the Netherlands.  So, it will likely be tomorrow before I get an answer.

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15 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

Answer from Mike Weatherman (support@race-monitor.com) from Race Monitor:

 

The short answer is Yes, you can run multiple events at the same time. 

 

Two down, one to go.  SpeedHive is in the Netherlands.  So, it will likely be tomorrow before I get an answer.

Again what does this solve that adding a lap correction factor doesnt? 

Other than to create two seperate races/places to look, or accidentally open the wrong race, confusion..etc?

 

We are just talking about different ways to sort/display data...2 seperate races seems overkill for a handful of cars, imo.  If I were an EC I would find that annoying. Just tag my class onto the bottom of the main list and be done, clean, easy.

Edited by Shane G.
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5 minutes ago, Shane G. said:

Again what does this solve that adding a lap correction factor doesnt? 

Other than to create two seperate races/places to look, or accidentally open the wrong race, confusion..etc?

 

1)  It removes EC from the actual ChampCar race for the "overall" win

2)  It creates a place to monitor the EC car race, without applying negative laps

3)  It allows ChampCar media to easily display a leader-board without EC included

4)  It helps those who are challenged by math

5)  It gives the complainers something else to complain about

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I personally dont care if you add x amount of laps or make a seperate page. What i am more worried about is that an ec car does not have to be on the vpi list. Or that one can put a motor from a car that is not on the vpi list. I always thought that even though they are ec cars they all had to play by the same rules. Just like they have to have 180tw tires. How long till we see ls1,or coyote powered miatas being the norm. This is not what champcar should be about.

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51 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

 

1)  It removes EC from the actual ChampCar race for the "overall" win

2)  It creates a place to monitor the EC car race, without applying negative laps

3)  It allows ChampCar media to easily display a leader-board without EC included

4)  It helps those who are challenged by math

5)  It gives the complainers something else to complain about

Ha, agreed to 1,3, 4, & 5 especially.  It does create an unintended consequence of adding another place to have to go look/search for T&S/results, confusion of selecting the wrong race, "Why is there only 6 cars competing at Road America? I dont see your team listed? ....oh you selected the wrong race.   "Huh???...but it says Champcar Road America!"?  Adding laps/correction factor adds a layer of confusion also,  but at the expense of the minority of EC teams vs the Majority of teams the other way.  I'm sure both methods/solutions have pro/cons/challenges, but  Either solution is better than what we currently have in my opinion. 

 

I think some of you are focusing on the words "penalty laps or correction factor" as negative thing. Let's use a different term "sorting method".  

The only purpose of the -1000 laps, ( an admin input ) is to "trick the T&S" into sorting and displaying the EC cars separately from the other classed cars and ensuring that sort remains throughout the race. It's just to trick the timing and scoring. It's as simple as that.  No math required, your lap chart, pitstops, etc would all score , record and display the same. Your relative position within EC would display accuratley also. The only thing you would have to do if you wanted to know your overall position amongst the entire field ,is look on your lap chart at how many completed laps you've made, and scroll up to the cars above and see where you'd slip inline..simple. You'd have to do the exact same thing if EC had their own race sheet/display anyway, might as well keep it in one place.

 

R3R, another option, maybe we could ask RaceHero if they have a way of adding a "multiple class sort/filter option".  That way each team/user can select which classes they chose to have displayed.  Can select all classes, individual classes, or multiple classes (ABCD,no EC displayed). Champcar Live could just simply filter out EC in the broadcast listing, along with anyone else for that matter.

Edited by Shane G.

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18 minutes ago, Shane G. said:

R3R, maybe we could ask RaceHero if they have a way of adding a "multiple class sort/filter option".  That way each team/user can select which classes they chose to have displayed.  Can select all classes, individual classes, or multiple classes (ABCD,no EC displayed). Champcar Live could just simply filter out EC in the broadcast listing, along with anyone else for that matter.

 

That is already built into Race Hero.  It is at the top.  It defaults to Overall, but you can click that and then select your class.  The problem is that you cannot select to see A,B,C,D together without EC.

 

Anyways, we know now that multiple races can be configured simultaneously on Race Hero and Race Monitor.  We've probably beat this issue to death now.

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

There's only one overall result and it includes the EC cars.  No one is selling class wins to sponsors that I know of.  

 

After the race, subtract (penalize) 100 laps from all EC cars before posting the final results.  That way I can see how I'm doing against my non-EC friends during the race but the official results won't show an EC car winning.  And it's easy to do in timing and scoring. 

 

Also start each EC cars name with "EC - Four Car Garage Motorsports" so it's super obvious to those that can't or don't look at the class on the screen.  

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3 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

The problem is that you cannot select to see A,B,C,D together without EC.

 

Don't separate A, B, C and D.  Make that all CC class because only the winner matters in class for trophies.  

Edited by skierman64
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44 minutes ago, espog said:

I personally dont care if you add x amount of laps or make a seperate page. What i am more worried about is that an ec car does not have to be on the vpi list. Or that one can put a motor from a car that is not on the vpi list. I always thought that even though they are ec cars they all had to play by the same rules. Just like they have to have 180tw tires. How long till we see ls1,or coyote powered miatas being the norm. This is not what champcar should be about.

 There have been a few ls motors in champcar.  As far back as 8 or 9 years ago.

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14 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

 

That is already built into Race Hero.  It is at the top.  It defaults to Overall, but you can click that and then select your class.  The problem is that you cannot select to see A,B,C,D together without EC.

 

 

Exactly right, but maybe they can add a selectible sort feature?  Allow you to sort/display any combo of classes?

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

No one is selling class wins to sponsors that I know of.  

I think Moparboyy and crew were claiming a B-class win (15th or something actual finish) to Mazda Contingency. Or at least they were trying to.

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20 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

After the race, subtract (penalize) 100 laps from all EC cars before posting the final results.  That way I can see how I'm doing against my non-EC friends during the race but the official results won't show an EC car winning.  And it's easy to do in timing and scoring. 

 

Also start each EC cars name with "EC - Four Car Garage Motorsports" so it's super obvious to those that can't or don't look at the class on the screen.  

That's another great idea too, but it doesnt help the confusion issue with race control, broadcast, pacecar, racers and fans tuning in as to who the actual leader is or accurate running order.  

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I know I am going to regret this, but...

Not all EC cars are born from the same mindset. For us it was simply to swap a later model engine into our E30 after the death of our M20 in our 2nd season. After running in C class from our first 5 races, we realized that running for the win was just not in the DNA of these 3 50-something year olds. So, instead of the painstaking tech inspection where we spell out the details of our swap and try to figure out how many laps we lose at each track we simply declare EC. We do not like the whole bastard class deal but whatever. We could easily take our 8 or 10 laps and call ourselves C class and suddenly be respected, but why? We have run 4 to 6 races a year for 6 years now and will continue until we cannot. As mentioned before, the WRL system has a class for all. We actually finished 1st in class in WRL (the other car broke). Seems like the classes would be enough to handle all. If your Miata is a hot rod maybe it goes to B class. If your E30 has an M54 swap, put it in D class. In my opinion the A class winner is just as much the winner as the overall (obviously C class) winner but not everyone sees it that way.

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The problem is that the classes in ChampCar don't make much sense.  Create 4 sensible, differentiated classes, and race for class wins.  I'm all for that.

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