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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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12 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

The problem is that the classes in ChampCar don't make much sense.  Create 4 sensible, differentiated classes, and race for class wins.  I'm all for that.

 

We are often to slow to compete for podium, but we do have a feel like we could win class. Even if it doesn't mean much it would be nice to get a trophy. 

But I agree it doesn't make sense. Could just as well take 10 random cars and put into a class, or class by car color or class by what driver had for breakfast.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

The problem is that the classes in ChampCar don't make much sense.  Create 4 sensible, differentiated classes, and race for class wins.  I'm all for that.

 

They are not meant to. There is only the overall podium. Some people really like the random classing of cars and the participation trophies they create.

 

The few times I discussed getting rid of them (they were created for chump car sprint racing since fuel consumption and other things built into the VPI don’t matter), people expressed how much they enjoy the random classes. 

 

Since so so many people enjoyed the classes and it doesn’t really hurt anyone I stopped bringing it up.

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8 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

class by what driver had for breakfast.

 

 

 

I'm not much of a smack talker but I guarantee we will dominate the eggs & hominy burrito class!:D

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7 hours ago, Huggy said:

Isnt letting EC cars have a say in this like letting non-citizens have a vote in elections?

 

Sure, come on over and enjoy the fun, but integrate into the group or deal with what is best for the group.

I believe everyone who drives in an event has to be a member.

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1 hour ago, Round3Racing said:

The problem is that the classes in ChampCar don't make much sense.  Create 4 sensible, differentiated classes, and race for class wins.  I'm all for that.

Think of the current classes like... "not better, just different". A-class tend to be small, nimble cars. D-class tend to be large American cars.

 

By design, all cars have the potential to run at the pointy end, so all that really matters is the overall win. But if you feel like a fish out of water at a particular track (like AMP or Gingerman or harris hill) and you are driving a thunderbird, you can look at the other D class cars and say "well, at least among cars like us that don't like small tracks, we are doing pretty good!!"

Edited by enginerd
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As someone that would bring a "fast" EC car, I would be discouraged to bring the car with the -100 laps. But maybe thats a good thing.....

 

I see all these EC cars "winning" an Event and its making me reconsider even building my legal 500 Point S2000, and wanting me to just bring my AER BBY Mustang. 

 

I guess it depends on which way Champ wants to go with it. If we start -100 Laps down we will NOT be bringing the AER BBY Mustang.

 

The one thing that always bugged me that if 5 Cars didnt show up, EC doesnt get a Trophy. I think the simple way to solve this even with the -100 laps is to give them a Trophy regardless of number of entries. So it is truly a race within a race. Maybe instead of Calling it EC call it Class X? 

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10 hours ago, Jer said:

For me it was the broadcast, actually.  They couldn't seem to keep track of which cars were exhibition and which were in the race which really impacted me.   Surprisingly, I got a number of private message from qualified teams upset because the standings don't reflect how they actually did.  They mentioned trying to take results to potential sponsors, explaining they won or placed when on paper it looked like they didn't do that well.  No sponsorship.  Other mentioned friends and family looking at them like liars when seeing the standings.  That's not good for members.  

 

I got it wrong.  Thanks.  The second most popular option was to classify those cars.  

Glad I’m not the only one thinking this way. Yesterday, I was going to post a screenshot of the Champcar rules and one of the definition of “exhibition”, but the rules say “exception” class. I like the wording “exhibition” in this case for classes. 

 

I’m also fully agreeing with any EC car taking negative 1,367 laps through tech instead of -100 laps b/c you are too lazy or don’t want to fill out the swap/tech sheet.

 

I think the ABCD classes are silly (different topic), but I smile wide when I get one anyways. And should be kept, along with EC class trophies.

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I think Champcar has been overly generous in allowing the type of EC car that we see on a regular basis and there is a huge difference between a 570 point E36 and factory built Cayman GT4.

 

From the rule book; 2.2.1. The Exception Class or “EC” car class is open to “ChampCar compatible” cars that wish to race with ChampCar but exceed the 1,000 point limit, or any team not wishing to compete for the overall win.

 

 The Cayman is absolutely not "ChampCar compatible" where most of the other EC cars are.

 

 There is an even simpler solution for scoring EC than having them start 100 laps down and that is to have them fill out the Tech sheets, totalling up their points and submitting it with their VPI. If their VPI is 510 then they start one lap down in the Timing, 520 is two laps and so on until they hit 1000 points and 50 laps. Any VPI over 1000 is automatically a 100 lap penalty. 

 

 This will keep them at the bottom of the Timing sheets and also have them scored relative to each other.

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Well I was trying to take a nap this afternoon until I opened this thread. 

 

Holey moley frijole.... what was it that @Racer28173 said? A debating club that races on the weekend. Yeah, that's it. 

 

It was hard enough to explain ChumpCar to people, and we was so embarrassed about that. So that changed. Good for the series? Yes? Jury still out? 

 

So now we have EC cars muddying the waters. What's good for the series? Short-term... it's the money, honey. Long-term..... is it about converting ECs to ChampCar class.... or is there a middle ground or a different goal? Let ChampCar Live come up with their own solution to un-confuse themselves. Reward the majority who follow the rules. Corollary: Not everyone will be happy. 

 

As for the west... it isn't about "stealing back" LDRL or Lemons teams. They are free to race with us or anybody they like. It's about encouraging new teams. 

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3 hours ago, enginerd said:

By design, all cars have the potential to run at the pointy end, 

 

That's a pretty optimistic statement.  

 

2 hours ago, BeastZ06 said:

I’m also fully agreeing with any EC car taking negative 1,367 laps through tech instead of -100 laps b/c you are too lazy or don’t want to fill out the swap/tech sheet.

 

What is the point of this....no, no, no.  Not only do I not want to debate how many points my car is (somewhere between 570 and 680, I don't want to enter the debate of how stuff is interpreted.  EC is just a bunch easier).  Plus i want to compete against other EC cars on a level playing field, even knowing I won't be fastest.  
------------------------------------------------------
EC has worked as is since 2012 or earlier.  Are we really debating this because a few people didn't notice a few cars said EC on Race Monitor?

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9 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

What is wrong with the minus 100 laps thing?  I haven't heard a good argument other than (paraphrasing) ... my renters and sponsers don't understand why we finished so far back....

 

Which, in reality, (by definition) those cars aren't even in the race except against each other.

3f2.jpeg

 

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13 hours ago, Jer said:

For me it was the broadcast, actually.  They couldn't seem to keep track of which cars were exhibition and which were in the race which really impacted me.   

You build a class legal car. Win the race. And publications like Sports Car Illustrated not only say the EC car won, but don't even have a picture of the class car that actually won the race. 

https://sportscarillustrated.com/news_18/g/news18g_0678_champcar_sebring.html

😄

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6 hours ago, skierman64 said:

Plus i want to compete against other EC cars on a level playing field, even knowing I won't be fastest. 

 

What part of "the car could be 510 points, or 1000 points" is a "level playing field"?

 

Either calculate your points and be classed ABCD, AND take laps according, or be EC, and take 100 laps.

 

It only makes sense. If you don't want to follow the rules, why should you get to be on the leaderboard?

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7 hours ago, Snorman said:

You build a class legal car. Win the race. And publications like Sports Car Illustrated not only say the EC car won, but don't even have a picture of the class car that actually won the race. 

https://sportscarillustrated.com/news_18/g/news18g_0678_champcar_sebring.html

😄

Where did it mention EC in the article?

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17 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Where did it mention EC in the article?

It didn't. That's the point. It's also what a number of other people have complained about re: OA positions. 

We won the race, but weren't even mentioned in the article. Heck, there wasn't even a picture of our car, lol. 

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11 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Where did it mention EC in the article?

 

Exactly, it doesn't. That's where @Jer's original point is coming from. 

 

 Article:

image.png.23af7cde28a28879df8041c8b961bd1e.png

 

Speedhive (the official AMB/Mylaps system) shows it as well, and unless I have a weird setting on my account, does not show class on the main screen either. 

 

image.thumb.png.f9d64dce07947dfdf7de79ccb850a054.png

 

Not knowing the series as well as those of us here do, it's a pretty open/shut deal for most people. Salt won, followed by KSR. The T&S site and web articles agree. 

 

To figure out that Salt and KSR are EC, I either A- have to know they are EC, or B- go to the "results by class screen", write down/print out who they are, then come back to the "All results" screen and start crossing people out....

 

image.thumb.png.4071c24984d195748457c994ec4fff56.png

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Wittenauer Racing said:

 

Exactly, it doesn't. That's where @Jer's original point is coming from. 

 

 Article:

image.png.23af7cde28a28879df8041c8b961bd1e.png

 

Speedhive (the official AMB/Mylaps system) shows it as well, and unless I have a weird setting on my account, does not show class on the main screen either. 

  

image.thumb.png.f9d64dce07947dfdf7de79ccb850a054.png

 

Not knowing the series as well as those of us here do, it's a pretty open/shut deal for most people. Salt won, followed by KSR. The T&S site and web articles agree. 

  

To figure out that Salt and KSR are EC, I either A- have to know they are EC, or B- go to the "results by class screen", write down/print out who they are, then come back to the "All results" screen and start crossing people out....

  

image.thumb.png.4071c24984d195748457c994ec4fff56.png

 

 

 

Lots of publications make that mistake, and you can't really blame them. In the race results it shows them as the overall winner and only people very familiar with Champ know that the EC cars don't count towards the actual results. 

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2 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

What part of "the car could be 510 points, or 1000 points" is a "level playing field"?

 

Either calculate your points and be classed ABCD, AND take laps according, or be EC, and take 100 laps.

 

It only makes sense. If you don't want to follow the rules, why should you get to be on the leaderboard?

 

Level playing field was a poor term to use on my part.  I'd still rather see all the EC cars start with zero laps so that it's easier to see who's performing near my teams performance.  Having a 1000 point car start with a 50 lap penalty (75 laps at Indy) makes it tough to compare performance as the race wears on.  

 

The last time I ran EC, 6 of the EC cars were all built to WRL GP2 standard, so it really was a level playing field.  

Edited by skierman64

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I think if the series can set up 2 separate races as @Round3Racing has confirmed is possible and put all the EC cars in the 2nd race, then that's probably the choice that keeps the most people happy.   The the broadcast team can only focus on the T+S with the classed cars.

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11 hours ago, the5 said:

As someone that would bring a "fast" EC car, I would be discouraged to bring the car with the -100 laps. But maybe thats a good thing.....

 

I see all these EC cars "winning" an Event and its making me reconsider even building my legal 500 Point S2000, and wanting me to just bring my AER BBY Mustang. 

 

I guess it depends on which way Champ wants to go with it. If we start -100 Laps down we will NOT be bringing the AER BBY Mustang.

 

The one thing that always bugged me that if 5 Cars didnt show up, EC doesnt get a Trophy. I think the simple way to solve this even with the -100 laps is to give them a Trophy regardless of number of entries. So it is truly a race within a race. Maybe instead of Calling it EC call it Class X? 

 

Forget about starting laps down. Get that out of your head. Irrelevant.  The debate is that EC cars will be displayed in Timing & Scoring (whatever procedure needed to accomplish this) below the Champcar legal classed cars.  You would be grouped with all the other "EC - Experimental/Exhibition/Exemption " cars, and your relative position within that group would be accurately displayed.  Not sure how any EC team who has read the rulebook could have an issue with that?

 

Your other option could be to run through tech, comply with Champcar rules/points and jump into a class like all the other teams. 

 

The5, you mean to tell me you only race for a participation trophy?  So if you are the only EC car registered, and you break/dnf 10 laps in, you want your participation trophy?....lol

Or a team that normally registers C class decides they wanna run EC that race, because there are no cars registered just so they can get a participation trophy? That's hilarious.

 

How does changing the name from "EC " to Class, "X,Y, Z , Meta World Peace, The Artist formerly known as EC" change anything?

 

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12 hours ago, the5 said:

As someone that would bring a "fast" EC car, I would be discouraged to bring the car with the -100 laps. But maybe thats a good thing.....

 

I see all these EC cars "winning" an Event and its making me reconsider even building my legal 500 Point S2000, and wanting me to just bring my AER BBY Mustang. 

 

I guess it depends on which way Champ wants to go with it. If we start -100 Laps down we will NOT be bringing the AER BBY Mustang.

 

 

 

Not to be a dick but I would hope your ex continental series mustang would not be welcome at a champcar race.   Just like I would hope my ACR-X wouldn't be welcome.    Its outright dangerous and if you can't see that then you are the guy that wants to just come out and be at the top of the standings for bragging rights while not evening attempting to play by the rules. 

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To play Devils advocate a bit here, and disclaimer, I don't really understand why a fully prepped EC car would want to come beat up on a bunch of legal 500 point cars (does it give you a sense of fulfillment to come beat a dodge neon - no offence neons! - with a prepped mustang??  If it does... weird). 

 

BUUUT, if you were someone like @skierman64 (who I assume has a nearly legal car) or the e46 at WGI with the really nice livery, a stock 325 and a really nice set of shocks that puts you way over in points, you aren't WILDLY faster than the field and can still kind of, in theory at least, race heads up with the whole field. Otherwise you are just racing the 5 or so cars that are 1000 laps down. 

 

That being said, it's dumb that the prepped Cayman is listed as a winner. 

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6 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

Not to be a dick but I would hope your ex continental series mustang would not be welcome at a champcar race.   Just like I would hope my ACR-X wouldn't be welcome.    Its outright dangerous and if you can't see that then you are the guy that wants to just come out and be at the top of the standings for bragging rights while not evening attempting to play by the rules. 

 

Not a dick at all. This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. What kind of weirdo gets pleasure from bringing a bazooka to a knife fight and is proud of the results...?!

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Just to clarify, the Cayman at WGI was a 2.9 liter car that ran in Conti ST.  It is not all that scary.  The Cayman at Road America was a completely different animal.  It was a 3.8 liter PDK car that was built for World Challenge GTS class (now known as GT4).  That car didn't belong.  I'm not so worried about the Sahlen's 2.9 liter Cayman.

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Funny EC cars were not a problem until they started showing up at the front of the pack.

 

I don't like EC cars there is enough speed differential between the faster and slower ABCD cars.  It's just a matter of time before an EC has an incident with a slower car or a contender and mucks up someone's weekend.  Last time I checked this league is open to beginners I can't see how that speed differential is a good thing.

 

It is my opinion the ABCD cars should have preference for attracting sponsors over ECEC is not supposed to be here to win the race.

 

To be clear if ChampCar wants to have them I'll go along, but the confusion needs to be addressed.  Even if we can keep it straight on the broadcast, what is recorded will cause confusion.  If we run two races then there will be two winners as the EC teams will certainly say they won the race -> creating confusion.  I don't like this either. 

 

I advocate a set laps penalty based on length of race (1000 lap race = 200 lap penalty, 500 lap race = 100 lap penalty or whatever likely keeps them out of the top half of the regular scoring).  I could also support them being classed and taking penalty laps based on their TCV.

 

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