Jump to content
Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

Recommended Posts

Why do EC cars want to beat up on cars following the rules?  Simply go to the Sahlens Racing Facebook page where they mention "winning" the Watkins Glen race with their Salt car.  Ain't they something, they WON!!!! 

 

I've had it and I won't let this die.  Mike S, how about starting 10 laps down?  Can you easily add ten?  Because that would do it almost anywhere.  These "winners" are a sham and it hurts our actual winners.  

Edited by Jer
  • Like 17
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Jer said:

Why do EC cars want to beat up on cars following the rules?  Simply go to the Sahlens Racing Facebook page where they mention "winning" the Watkins Glen race with their Salt car.  Ain't they something, they WON!!!! 

 

I've had it and I won't let this die.  Mike S, how about starting 10 laps down?  Can you easily add ten?  Because that would do it almost anywhere.  These "winners" are a sham and it hurts our actual winners.  

Thanks Jer.   I 100% support your line of thinking here.   100 laps is the easiest.    I’m not sure 10 would have worked with the P car at Road America.   

 

I also think there shoild be limits on what the cars can be.   I think they should be on the vpi list.  

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The EC car thing brings up an interesting point about our classing and point allocations. EC has allowed us to sort of head in the sand several questions about value on parts we were not prepared to comment on (technical that is) and instead suggest people just run EC

 

Fuel capacity beyond stock, engines not from cars on our list, newer cars, fancy parts that don't match what we have known values for....just lump em in EC

 

We could always re explore those topics, estimate value add, and put more points to it. That would give reasonably appropriate but hopefully conservative (bias to more) lap penalties to cars that used to be in EC, and we could pull them back into the normal classing. With people the way they are, and strong vested interests to keep the currently raced\vocal cars as the most competitive choices, this might be a hard sell. 

 

I think in reality we will be forced to make more than one class in the future, as we don't have easy to reach parity amoung the car makes. 2 or 3 classes with particular car types in mind, some overall correction factor for classes might be the best approach. I can see distinct classes for cars below 14:1, 12:1 and something to catch EC. I could see tech and builds being much easier for cars like the neon if they target something closer to their stock power in the 14:1 class, than build up to the sc300\swapped e30 12:1 class. Maybe give -5 laps to the 14:1 cars, 0 to the 12:1 cars, and +5 to the ec type builds. Those get added to your laps in class, meaning a 510 point car built from a "14:1" chassis\car gets -4 laps.

 

We can keep pulling the group into "single class" but this will require values be given for things we typically have avoided. It also will continue to creep speed, as we are deathly afraid to make any paying customer of multiple races over 500 points. Is it time for multiple classes that matter, or is there the stomach to handle having to assign reasonable points for fuel capacity, engines not on vpi list, cars newer than our current vpi list, etc.

Edited by Black Magic
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Jer said:

Why do EC cars want to beat up on cars following the rules?  Simply go to the Sahlens Racing Facebook page where they mention "winning" the Watkins Glen race with their Salt car.  Ain't they something, they WON!!!! 

 

I've had it and I won't let this die.  Mike S, how about starting 10 laps down?  Can you easily add ten?  Because that would do it almost anywhere.  These "winners" are a sham and it hurts our actual winners.  

giphy.gif

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Billy Sahlen posted this on one of Tuttle's Facebook posts.  This is what we are talking about.  Say what you will about Tuttle, but they overcame the shame of their actions, fought back for years legally and fairly and they finally win.  And this gets dumped on their Facebook page:

 

"Billy Sahlen Actually if you want to get technical salt won both days. Just not acknowledged as such. ;)

 

My goal is to ensure this never happens again.  Ever.  

Edited by Jer
  • Like 7
  • Thanks 7
  • Haha 1
  • Sad 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And here's another earlier post exhalting their achievement in their IMSA Cayman against a bunch of $5K Miatas and Neons...  

 

Yes, adding 100 laps will get this BS taken care of...

 

 

Screenshot_20190530-105115_Chrome.thumb.jpg.97549afd88269d514e071e14d41044e2.jpg

Edited by Racer7x
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

The EC car thing brings up an interesting point about our classing and point allocations. EC has allowed us to sort of head in the sand several questions about value on parts we were not prepared to comment on (technical that is) and instead suggest people just run EC

 

Fuel capacity beyond stock, engines not from cars on our list, newer cars, fancy parts that don't match what we have known values for....just lump em in EC

 

We could always re explore those topics, estimate value add, and put more points to it. That would give reasonably appropriate but hopefully conservative (bias to more) lap penalties to cars that used to be in EC, and we could pull them back into the normal classing. With people the way they are, and strong vested interests to keep the currently raced\vocal cars as the most competitive choices, this might be a hard sell. 

 

I think in reality we will be forced to make more than one class in the future, as we don't have easy to reach parity amoung the car makes. 2 or 3 classes with particular car types in mind, some overall correction factor for classes might be the best approach. I can see distinct classes for cars below 14:1, 12:1 and something to catch EC. I could see tech and builds being much easier for cars like the neon if they target something closer to their stock power in the 14:1 class, than build up to the sc300\swapped e30 12:1 class. Maybe give -5 laps to the 14:1 cars, 0 to the 12:1 cars, and +5 to the ec type builds. Those get added to your laps in class, meaning a 510 point car built from a "14:1" chassis\car gets -4 laps.

 

We can keep pulling the group into "single class" but this will require values be given for things we typically have avoided. It also will continue to creep speed, as we are deathly afraid to make any paying customer of multiple races over 500 points. Is it time for multiple classes that matter, or is there the stomach to handle having to assign reasonable points for fuel capacity, engines not on vpi list, cars newer than our current vpi list, etc.

We are not WRL and won't ever be.   We will not be class racing until you replace the entire Board and CEO with people wanting class racing as the focus.  Currently not one Board member is in favor of this that I know of.  We have defined our series as a single race, and although some prefer class racing, most do not. This is what makes our series unique.  Sorry, not sorry.  

Edited by Jer
  • Like 6
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thewheelerZ said:

BUUUT, if you were someone like @skierman64 (who I assume has a nearly legal car) or the e46 at WGI with the really nice livery, a stock 325 and a really nice set of shocks that puts you way over in points, you aren't WILDLY faster than the field and can still kind of, in theory at least, race heads up with the whole field. Otherwise you are just racing the 5 or so cars that are 1000 laps down. 

 

Exactly, I doubt we'll be faster than the pointy end CC legal cars, but our car is built to a different rule set.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, skierman64 said:

 

Exactly, I doubt we'll be faster than the pointy end CC legal cars, but our car is built to a different rule set.  

Mike, I've raced with you,  like you and respect you.  Unfortunately, more and more EC entrants are not like you.  If they were all like you this probably wouldn't be an issue.  But it is increasingly a problem that needs to be dealt with.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Snake said:

I think if the series can set up 2 separate races as @Round3Racing has confirmed is possible and put all the EC cars in the 2nd race, then that's probably the choice that keeps the most people happy.   The the broadcast team can only focus on the T+S with the classed cars.

 

This could work good too, but needs more explanation of how it works.

Would "Race1" display ABCD cars with "Race 2" displaying just EC? If so that wouldn't solve anything. However if "Race 2" would display ABCD and EC cars,  then we may have a winner!   

 

The only other challenge/confusion with multiple races will be with speedive or the official race results postings. Do you delete the Race 2 at the completion of the event then? What happens to the EC race history?   If not, it seems you would have the same problem as before. It would lead to confusion from people not all that familiar..."Why are there two lists/races, which one is the official ?" "So who was the actual winner?"

Not sure why a relatively small field of EC teams vs the rest needs to cause that discussion and muddy the watters?

 

I get the feeling there are three or four types of EC teams.

 

1. Just want to bring a car to go W2W racing, share track time, meet new people, test out the series, realize they are an exception car not competing for a win, may decide to build /buy or conform the car at a later date.

 

2. Want to bring a Car from another series and compete with ChampCar legal cars, but don't want to conform to Champcar Class rules and not willing to take the penalty laps going through tech to do so.

 

3. Wanna bring/build a fast car, not conform to any class rules, go fast, pass lots of cars (big fish little pond thinking), and expect to be recognized for doing so.

 

4.  Other....

 

Let's face it, most teams wishing to compete are classed cars ABCD, that's why they are in those classes (majority of Champcar field) and deserve recognition for their efforts when they do well.

 

Im guessing group 1 couldn't care less where they are displayed in the results, and know this before they ever took the track.

 

 Group 2 and 3 want to be recognized for doing well with their "open" cars even if it was against a handicapped field. You got to be kidding me?  

 

 The rules state they are not competing for an overall win, all teams know this going into the race, so let's not add to the confusion and take away from the class conforming cars.  List them together within their EC group on the bottom of the T&S, that way they are still competing within their own "big fish group", and if they care to see how many little fish they "ate/or didnt eat", they can look at their lap count, and scroll up the page and see where they finished in the overall pond, easy enough. 

 

I just think listing EC cars mixed within the grouping takes a lot away from the legitimate classed cars in which the series was created and intended.  Mixing them in, promotes series progression toward open EC cars...

 

That's my last 2.5 cents...exhausted.

If I offended anyone I'm sorry, not my intent, tone and sarcasm dont always come off correctly in text. 

 

Edited by Shane G.
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jer said:

We are not WRL and won't ever be.   We will not be class racing until you replace the entire Board and CEO with people wanting class racing as the focus.  Currently not one Board member is in favor of this that I know of.  We have defined our series as a single race, and although some prefer class racing, most do not. This is what makes our series fun and unique.  Sorry.  Or maybe it's sorry, not sorry.  

 

 This is a curious statement considering there are trophies handed out to 5 different classes, we have class decals on the car, class sponsors and a set of rules that completely fails to balance a diverse field effectively.

 

 I don't like class racing (it was introduced 50 years ago for everyone to get more track time and have full fields) but it's what we are stuck with until the VPI list better reflects base performance and the Fixed Point Value List actually adds points to your VPI.

 

 The aero is getting way out of hand, in my opinion, and should be eliminated or at the very least valued much higher than the ridiculous 10 points it sits at right now. This alone would tighten the "classes" back up.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Jer said:

We are not WRL and won't ever be.   We will not be class racing until you replace the entire Board and CEO with people wanting class racing as the focus.  Currently not one Board member is in favor of this that I know of.  We have defined our series as a single race, and although some prefer class racing, most do not. This is what makes our series unique.  Sorry, not sorry.  

 

Post of the year for 2019 so far. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

 This is a curious statement considering there are trophies handed out to 5 different classes, we have class decals on the car, class sponsors and a set of rules that completely fails to balance a diverse field effectively.

Only one podium P1 P2 P3.  We have seen every spot on the podium filled by cars representing each class we use.  This will not happen in WRL or any other true class racing.

 

Last race I was in had A B and C on the podium - Mazda BMW and Saturn. 

   

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, what if my 712 point EC miata  (because reasons, no it’s not running away with ANY wins) had the option to “cash in” points, rather than start 200 laps down.  Cash in 100 points and now I’m B, or cash in 200 points and now I’m C. 

 

Boom, I have a car that can still crossover with WRL, also be CC legal, and I don’t have to reinvent my wheel when the pitchfork wielding vocal minority runs my EC ass off. 

 

I realize in Champcar not enough emphasis is on class wins and it’s all about the overall, but it’s an idea. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

 

 

 The aero is getting way out of hand, in my opinion, and should be eliminated or at the very least valued much higher than the ridiculous 10 points it sits at right now. This alone would tighten the "classes" back up.  

Yes, because a stock 2.5l e30 doesn’t need help keeping up with the 3.0-3.9l cars such as the SC300’s.......

 

*greenfont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 minute ago, Jer said:

We are not WRL and won't ever be.   We will not be class racing until you replace the entire Board and CEO with people wanting class racing as the focus.  Currently not one Board member is in favor of this that I know of.  We have defined our series as a single race, and although some prefer class racing, most do not. This is what makes our series unique.  Sorry, not sorry.  

 

Our team is all for the single class racing, to the point that we ran for 3 races with 16 penalty laps rather than going EC, so don't take this as a criticism of that. But if Champcar is going to continue to focus on single class racing when so far as I can see from their rule books all of the other options in this market have class racing based on performance then I think Champ needs to get comfortable with increasing numbers of EC cars, because it is inevitable. 

 

I think the limit on what can be run in EC needs visiting, because honestly the Caymans and 370z's of the world make a bit of a joke out of the rest of us, and present a safety risk. Super cool to have a 40+mph closing speed difference with a gt4 spec Cayman when you're in a 170hp bmw. /s 

 

I think if the intent is just to make EC cars that are way off the mark not show up at the top of timing and scoring, then adding the even 100/1000 laps to all EC cars would solve that but it should be done right at the end of the race. That way, the EC cars that do close to fit the pace still get to have the fun during the race of knowing where they are in comparison to who they are on track with, but the moment the race ends the EC cars are all demoted.  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^ Theres an idea right there.  Nice little compromise to add the laps at the end, EC guys can still race right up until the last lap and the final standings show the real winner.  Now, if we could do the round3racing idea of separate races the ABCD cars could follow only that race, these results could be deleted at the end of the day and not posted to speedhive and the adjusted EC results are the official.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Subtracting laps at the end does nothing for the problem that originally brought this up. ChampCar Live was having a difficult time dropping the EC cars out of their talking. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

 This is a curious statement considering there are trophies handed out to 5 different classes, we have class decals on the car, class sponsors and a set of rules that completely fails to balance a diverse field effectively.

 

 I don't like class racing (it was introduced 50 years ago for everyone to get more track time and have full fields) but it's what we are stuck with until the VPI list better reflects base performance and the Fixed Point Value List actually adds points to your VPI.

 

 The aero is getting way out of hand, in my opinion, and should be eliminated or at the very least valued much higher than the ridiculous 10 points it sits at right now. This alone would tighten the "classes" back up.  

These ideas have been brought up before.  Look, it's impossible to read every post ever made, but our class racing is around as a leftover from a sprint race idea hatched by our old CEO and almost as quickly removed and forgotten about.  We had talk about making the classes sorted in a better manner, but frankly no one cared enough to actually make it happen.  It lives on in its current state because it doesn't hurt anything, costs us little in tiny trophies, and gives people something else they can tell friends, family and sponsors.  It is not our focus by any means.  

 

Aero removal was quickly dismissed.  Many cars need it to compete, and frankly, it's a builder's series.  If you want to build or add aero, go for it.  It certainly makes the cars look racy and fun.  A lot of the aero on our cars likely doesn't really do much, but hey, it's up to you to decide.  Some of it is super effective.  Short answer, aero isn't going anywhere.  

 

Higgy-are you guys in a little wagon or hatch?  Color-greenish?  If so, I would like to talk to you about your stint one driver from Sunday's race.  I might have the wrong car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mostmint said:

Funny EC cars were not a problem until they started showing up at the front of the pack.

 

 

We always had a problem with EC but as a pokey midpack team we thought we were the only ones so we didnt complain.  But we are also the weirdos that think nothing should be "free", $500 cars should be the norm, Bill Strong should run for President, and its all been downhill since the e36 was declared 5 hundo points 😁

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Johnpickard79 said:

Our team is all for the single class racing, to the point that we ran for 3 races with 16 penalty laps rather than going EC, so don't take this as a criticism of that. But if Champcar is going to continue to focus on single class racing when so far as I can see from their rule books all of the other options in this market have class racing based on performance then I think Champ needs to get comfortable with increasing numbers of EC cars, because it is inevitable. 

 

I think the limit on what can be run in EC needs visiting, because honestly the Caymans and 370z's of the world make a bit of a joke out of the rest of us, and present a safety risk. Super cool to have a 40+mph closing speed difference with a gt4 spec Cayman when you're in a 170hp bmw. /s 

First point-because we don't emphasize classes like other series, we are unique.  And I will say this in type, we are more successful than the other series out there (save Lemons, a completely different animal).  Not putting down the other series, but ours is healthy and growing.  AER does well with what it does but is stuck in the NE for the most part, Lucky Dog is doing great out west (partly because of incompetence from Chumpcar in the past), but we cover a much larger geographic cross section of America and have in general much better attendance. I think we'll keep doing what we are doing.  

 

Second paragraph-I completely agree with you.  I will bring it up at a Board meeting.  I'm not sure there is strong support for limiting EC, but I will at least broach the subject.  Some think there is a level of prestige, though, having IMSA cars running with us.  I am not one of those people, but....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good ideas guys.

 

During the race, set up two races. 

 

Race 1: Champcar Classed cars -ABCD displayed, this is what Champcar Live uses, mentions, comments on, who pace car picks up, etc...

 

Race 2: All cars ABCD and EC displayed, for those EC cars to see how they are running during the race.

 

After the Race:

 

Race 1: Delete

 

Race 2 Apply a correction to ALL EC cars to be displayed below the ABCD Class Cars in their relative finish order within EC.  Post to Speedive.

 

Boom!!!

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jer said:

Billy Sahlen posted this on one of Tuttle's Facebook posts.  This is what we are talking about.  Say what you will about Tuttle, but they overcame the shame of their actions, fought back for years legally and fairly and they finally win.  And this gets dumped on their Facebook page:

 

"Billy Sahlen Actually if you want to get technical salt won both days. Just not acknowledged as such. ;)

 

My goal is to ensure this never happens again.  Ever.  

That is pretty sh!tty. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shane G. said:

Good ideas guys.

 

During the race, set up two races. 

 

Race 1: Champcar Classed cars -ABCD displayed, this is what Champcar Live uses, mentions, comments on, who pace car picks up, etc...

 

Race 2: All cars ABCD and EC displayed, for those EC cars to see how they are running during the race.

 

After the Race:

 

Race 1: Delete

 

Race 2 Apply a correction to ALL EC cars to be displayed below the ABCD Class Cars in their relative finish order within EC.  Post to Speedive.

 

Boom!!!

 

 

 

That actually is a pretty good idea.  A little extra work, but interesting. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the classes is a whole different topic that needs a thread on here.  at this point classes are just a way to race for a sub-trophy with a random set of cars.  this isn't bad, but it's not a representation of breaking the cars out by lap times due to power

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...