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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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1 minute ago, Jer said:

First point-because we don't emphasize classes like other series, we are unique.  And I will say this in type, we are more successful than the other series out there (save Lemons, a completely different animal).  Not putting down the other series, but ours is healthy and growing.  AER does well with what it does but is stuck in the NE for the most part, Lucky Dog is doing great out west (partly because of incompetence from Chumpcar in the past), but we cover a much larger geographic cross section of America and have in general much better attendance. I think we'll keep doing what we are doing.  

 

Second paragraph-I completely agree with you.  I will bring it up at a Board meeting.  I'm not sure there is strong support for limiting EC, but I will at least broach the subject.  Some think there is a level of prestige, though, having IMSA cars running with us.  I am not one of those people, but....

We have always chosen to race with Champcar, even when WRL was racing closer to us or more favorable dates at the same tracks.  The original reason was we were new to racing and didn't like the idea of the closing speed differentials that were there.  That has since changed and we have found ourselves contemplating whether or not to dip our toes in and save some of the tow costs to Champcar events as it has now been shown that Champcar is allowing for speed differentials that are probably much higher on the high end, but also much lower on the low end with fields that are much bigger!

 

We love the formula and have been loyal customers and supporters for years, but after seeing the GT4 Porsche at Road America and all the talk here, it makes you wonder.  EC should be what it was originally intended for, those who wanted to dip their toes in our series for a couple of events and then conform or take the laps.  Newer cars are added to the list as time marches on, but it should not be pro built race car versions of those cars that we are allowing.

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

First point-because we don't emphasize classes like other series, we are unique.  And I will say this in type, we are more successful than the other series out there (save Lemons, a completely different animal).  Not putting down the other series, but ours is healthy and growing.  AER does well with what it does but is stuck in the NE for the most part, Lucky Dog is doing great out west (partly because of incompetence from Chumpcar in the past), but we cover a much larger geographic cross section of America and have in general much better attendance. I think we'll keep doing what we are doing.  

 

Second paragraph-I completely agree with you.  I will bring it up at a Board meeting.  I'm not sure there is strong support for limiting EC, but I will at least broach the subject.  Some think there is a level of prestige, though, having IMSA cars running with us.  I am not one of those people, but....

 

Don't dismiss the similarities of that "different animal", people commonly "convert" cars from one series to the other. Fuel cell rules being one of the major reasons lemons guys trying champ need EC class (engine swap being the next most popular reason why). 

 

Racing for both of the series seem to be up, but I worry about the growth in the other series. They have 124 teams signed up for a east coast race we had to drop from our schedule due to lack of attendance (NJMP Lightning). The cars are clearly in the region and willing to drive there, and although a different atmosphere I worry the lack of a carryover class for them with some sort of incentive to compete\try against other teams limits our market. They have no issues assigning some sort of nearly reasonable classing\penalty laps to our cars that mixes with their regulars, which makes the transaction sort of one sided. 

 

Just trying to make sure we don't miss out on growth opportunity. I prefer our level of competition in preparation and driver skill, our efficiency in running an event and our price point. Would love to bring more people over from the other group who in my view pay more to get less..... 

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1 hour ago, Shane G. said:

 Group 2 and 3 want to be recognized for doing well with their "open" cars even if it was against a handicapped field. You got to be kidding me?  

 

Nope not kidding, I have a lot of friends/long time competitors I know racing in CC class.  Yes, I want to know how I'm doing against them during the race.  Some I would consider benchmarks of excellence, it's a good comparison.  

I come to race, not just turn laps, which is why I want to see how I'm going against certain competitors during the race with live timing and scoring.  

In all the points adding pieces I have on my car only one really makes my car faster than stock.  Some of the thing that add points are absurd IMHO (Camber plates being one of those, it doesn't add speed it only add ease to the build)

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I apologize if my post came across wrong, I'm not trying to say that I think Champ should change away from single class racing or the points system. All you have to look at is all the series calendar's to recognize that Champ is the biggest and best. I was just trying to say that since the sample size of cars that are not built that way but are interested in pseudo-amateur endurance racing increases, so will the number of teams wishing to give Champ a go in EC. Most of the time they aren't any faster than the fast champcars, and many are right in mid pack from what I personally have seen at the races we've done. But the outliers are scary fast, and thats a problem for both results and safety IMO

 

Not to mention I'm going to have to invest in better ear protection if the silver Cayman comes back to Road America, that mother****** was loud! 

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5 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Nope not kidding, I have a lot of friends/long time competitors I know racing in CC class.  Yes, I want to know how I'm doing against them during the race.  Some I would consider benchmarks of excellence, it's a good comparison.  

I come to race, not just turn laps, which is why I want to see how I'm going against certain competitors during the race with live timing and scoring.  

In all the points adding pieces I have on my car only one really makes my car faster than stock.  Some of the thing that add points are absurd IMHO (Camber plates being one of those, it doesn't add speed it only add ease to the build)

If what you are saying is that you want to see how you compare against the rule/class conforming cars during the race, I get it! 

But what I hope you arent saying is you want to play the game, just dont want to play by the rules in said game.... And then want the recognition and trophy too for your success.  That I dont get!

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19 hours ago, Jer said:

And then drop the one with EC included in the historical records?

Did  the historical records change when rule changes were implemented? Did we wash the 400sx Dinoco car results from the books after the swap rules changed? 

 

Question:

Is it possible to change the EC cars from the position they finished to NC post race but before uploading the results? NC for not classified. So the lap count is correct for the EC cars but they don't have finishing positions?

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

First point-because we don't emphasize classes like other series, we are unique.  .

 

 

The series may not but as a board member you must admit most of your racers/customers do.  Almost everyone that posts race recaps include their class position.  A few members continuously dismiss the classes but largely, people like them and everyone pays attention to where they are in class as well as overall during the race.  

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2 hours ago, Jer said:

 

 

"Billy Sahlen Actually if you want to get technical salt won both days. Just not acknowledged as such. ;)

 

My goal is to ensure this never happens again.  Ever.  

 

That's ridiculous and I hope that Mike C tells them as much.  Maybe to the point to where that car is no longer allowed to run in the series.  That would end the confusion on their part of "winning".

Edited by Snake
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13 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

That's ridiculous and I hope that Mike C tells them as much.  Maybe to the point to where that car is no longer allowed to run in the series.  That would end the confusion on their part of "winning".

 

OK, easy buddy. I think that is more than a bit extreme. 

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21 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

 

The series may not but as a board member you must admit most of your racers/customers do.  Almost everyone that posts race recaps include their class position.  A few members continuously dismiss the classes but largely, people like them and everyone pays attention to where they are in class as well as overall during the race.  

As a Board we are supposed to advocate for the members.  We have not ever felt like most or even more members want class racing as a focus.  Maybe we are off the mark but not to our knowledge 

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1 hour ago, theblue said:

the classes is a whole different topic that needs a thread on here.  at this point classes are just a way to race for a sub-trophy with a random set of cars.  this isn't bad, but it's not a representation of breaking the cars out by lap times due to power

 

You are 100% correct, at this point classes are just a way to race for a sub-trophy with a random set of cars.

 

Correct as well, it's not a representation of breaking the cars out by lap times due to power.

The way the rules are designed, classes don't make sense. The point of the rules is to give as much parity between many makes and models as possible. Yes some will be inherently better than others, and that will never be perfect.  

The fact of the matter is that a large portion of the membership really likes racing in the random subset of cars for a tiny little trophy. I for years was completely against the classes as I am an engineer and they just don't make sense. Then after talking to hundreds of teams, I found out that teams really liked the random subset classes. As @Jer has stated, it doesn't really take away from anything, and it doesn't cost much $$ at all for a few tiny trophies but yet apparently is something that a large part of the membership wants. 

For about a year now I have been in favor of keeping the classes as-is. You don't want to make them "better" by actually making them a less than random subset because the focus of the series is single class racing. They are not hurting the racing or the cost of racing, but instead making some teams happy. Although some teams may not be able to compete for the overall podium, they might be able to compete against a smaller random subgroup. It also acts as a stepping stone for new teams. An overall win might be a hard goal to achieve, but winning a class might be something a new team can shoot for etc. 

 

\rambling 

Edited by red0
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7 minutes ago, Jer said:

As a Board we are supposed to advocate for the members.  We have not ever felt like most or even more members want class racing as a focus.  Maybe we are off the mark but not to our knowledge 

 

My point was more towards the idea that most teams/members dont care or pay attention to the classes.  I think that is 100% false.  Not advocating that we should go to a more focused class based system.  

Edited by Snake
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4 minutes ago, Jer said:

As a Board we are supposed to advocate for the members.  We have not ever felt like most or even more members want class racing as a focus.  Maybe we are off the mark but not to our knowledge 

 

You are not off the mark. I can find class racing just about anywhere. I can find bracket racing all over. I can't find what we have here anywhere else. 

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16 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

OK, easy buddy. I think that is more than a bit extreme. 

 

Why?  They did exactly what everyone is saying they dislike in this thread.   Coming out with an EC car, not on the VPI list, not anywhere near the rule set, and claiming a win.   The series doesnt need it.  

Edited by Snake
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1 minute ago, Snake said:

 

Why?  They are doing exactly what everyone is saying they dislike in this thread.   Coming out with an EC car, not on the VPI list, not anywhere near the rule set, and claiming a win.   The series doesnt need it.  

 

Salens has been good to the series more than they have been bad.  They need a spanking, not a banning after that nonsense billy posted.  He owes champcar an apology IMHO.

Edited by theblue
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1 minute ago, theblue said:

 

Salens has been good to the series more than they have been bad.  They need a spanking, not a banning after that nonsense billy posted.  He owes champcar an apology IMHO.

 

Not the entire team and if that's what anyone thought I meant it is not.  I'm speaking to just the car that "won". 

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Just now, Snake said:

 

Not the entire team and if that's what anyone thought I meant it is not.  I'm speaking to just the car that "won". 

Just guessing, but perhaps Mike let that car in because they were sponsoring the event.  Again, I'm guessing.  I would prefer it not return but its Mike's call.  

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8 minutes ago, Jer said:

Just guessing, but perhaps Mike let that car in because they were sponsoring the event.  Again, I'm guessing.  I would prefer it not return but its Mike's call.  

It’s been at other tracks.

I find it odd that we’re now talking about excluding certain cars based on their speed while we have certain classed cars that are achieving the same straight line speed differential all while being in the rule set. There’s a certain black Camaro that comes to mind all while having a higher contact/incident ratio than the Cayman.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Shane G. said:

If what you are saying is that you want to see how you compare against the rule/class conforming cars during the race, I get it! 

But what I hope you arent saying is you want to play the game, just dont want to play by the rules in said game.... And then want the recognition and trophy too for your success.  That I dont get!

 

I know there's no trophy unless there's 5 EC car and then only for the winner.  I don't expect to win EC when there will be a lot faster cars than mine in EC class.  

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Here's another thought.

 

When I first raced, I couldn't believe I was finally going to do what I have dreamt of doing for so long.  For years I had watched almost any form of racing I could, and now suddenly, I had the unbelievable opportunity to race a car, around a real racetrack, against other like-minded guys/gals for a relatively low cost.  You couldn't break my smile for weeks after, and I just yearned for more and more. 

 

I didn't race with a really competitive team.  Most of the time, the team was just happy to be out there, trying to keep the shiny side up, trying not to hurt ourselves or others, and praying the car would make it to the end.  While I have great memories of battling a few like cars and learning along the way, I realized that in endurance racing with dissimilar cars, I was racing my fellow teammates for the FTD, trying to be competitive in our class,  and trying really hard to bring the car home (as fast as it would let me).  And, I loved every minute of it.

 

I recently read that only 1% of the members of Champ are active on the Forum.  Those 1% are constantly debating the merits of this or that, scrutinizing cars, tracks, and drivers, or just enjoying the camaraderie.  But those 1% are the stewards of all of our endeavors, and the endeavors of those, like all of us, who have the passion.  

 

Let's all be aware and cognizant that decisions being affected or made through the medium of this forum are affecting the 99%, AND those out there that have yet to have their first race. 

 

I think that Champcar is at a crossroads,  I just hope that the future guy/gal who has been watching for too long, can have the same life changing opportunity that I had.

 

Ken

 

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OK, guys, I'm not going to make any more posts on this for a while, but this is an update from Mike C.

 

We are going to to split the scoring at NCM.  I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I do know that EC cars will still be timed, but will not show up in one version of the standings.  Since we are not sure how this will work, We can't promise anything additional at this point.  That is only a few weeks away so let's see how it goes.

 

EC cars not on the VPI list will not be allowed to run with us starting in 2020.  I'd forgotten the Board already decided this previously.  So that problem will take care of itself soon.  

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3 hours ago, Snake said:

 

That's ridiculous and I hope that Mike C tells them as much.  Maybe to the point to where that car is no longer allowed to run in the series.  That would end the confusion on their part of "winning".

Pretty harsh.  I don't think that  car has ran a ChampCar race before.

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36 minutes ago, Jer said:

OK, guys, I'm not going to make any more posts on this for a while, but this is an update from Mike C.

 

We are going to to split the scoring at NCM.  I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I do know that EC cars will still be timed, but will not show up in one version of the standings.  Since we are not sure how this will work, We can't promise anything additional at this point.  That is only a few weeks away so let's see how it goes.

 

EC cars not on the VPI list will not be allowed to run with us starting in 2020.  I'd forgotten the Board already decided this previously.  So that problem will take care of itself soon.  

Thanks.   So nice to positive actions taking place in a timely manner.  

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35 minutes ago, Jer said:

OK, guys, I'm not going to make any more posts on this for a while, but this is an update from Mike 

Hopefully a long while.  Nice way to treat a sponsor dude.  

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