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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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6 hours ago, Jer said:

Billy Sahlen posted this on one of Tuttle's Facebook posts.  This is what we are talking about.  Say what you will about Tuttle, but they overcame the shame of their actions, fought back for years legally and fairly and they finally win.  And this gets dumped on their Facebook page:

 

"Billy Sahlen Actually if you want to get technical salt won both days. Just not acknowledged as such. ;)

 

My goal is to ensure this never happens again.  Ever.  

Agree

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I did not know,  thank you Ben.  Still  not a reason to bash another member IMO especially a director.

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34 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Pretty harsh.  I don't think that  car has ran a ChampCar race before.

Thats false,  It was definitely at Sebring in Dec 2018.

 

As I posted before, Nothing against Salens, they drove that car very respectfully at sebring from what I saw.

 

I just dont think we need to be letting cars equivalent to or faster than a e46M3 into the series.  Not our bag of tricks.

No caymans

No race prepped 370z

No e92 m's

No 911 cups

 

Not our pig, not our farm, lets stick to doing what we are best at.  Let those guys continue to race with AER or WRL.

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30 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Hopefully a long while.  Nice way to treat a sponsor dude.  

 

Money should not buy you special treatment, either good or bad.  

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2 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Hopefully a long while.  Nice way to treat a sponsor dude.  

 

That's the kind of attitude that allows sponsors to get away with things that drive members away.

 

It's pretty clear that their performance on track is not what caught them flack, but the attitude of someone after.

 

Where I'm from, if you show up in an exhibition car, they pitch your time card in the trash at the end of the race.  No timing, no scoring, the only thing you're allowed to win at is having fun.

 

The fact that EC has always been timed is surprising, and when I got to my first race I was amazed they were being timed, or placed at all.

 

I never thought I'd be caught defending the race fuel powered convertibles from Tuttle, but they won, as far as I can tell they did so fair and square by today's rules.  To get s**t on by an EC car owner, and such an outlier no less is embarrassing to the series, and the group as a whole.  If anyone needs to be apologizing, it sure as hell isn't @Jer.

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On 5/29/2019 at 6:15 PM, skierman64 said:

 

They aren't completing...they are in a different class.  Ever watch IMSA on TV?

 

all the time.. still dont see an unlimited class in IMSA where Audi brings out a LeMans car and destroys the field and claims victory.

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On 5/29/2019 at 6:23 PM, Jer said:

 No one is selling class wins to sponsors that I know of.  

 

We 100% are doing this and Mazda is also watching us and posting about it on their website.

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5 hours ago, Jer said:

As a Board we are supposed to advocate for the members.  We have not ever felt like most or even more members want class racing as a focus.  Maybe we are off the mark but not to our knowledge 

 

is that why the crappy class trophies were scrapped because people 'didn't care?'  Come on, the only people who don't care about classes is the largest class because most of them are always up front.  Sure go to a small track and you'll get more A class cars battling for overall but the majority of overall winners come from C.   If classes become 'nothing'  we would most likely scrap our B class car since it never has a shot of winning overall, but in B its a beast.   

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Interesting thread for sure, I have not read it all yet.

 

Our team was just talking about if we should entering the INDY race with an EC car (Nasa GTS 4 BMW) or stick with our C class Champcar, which has its highest place of 4th in class and 5 overall.

 

EC car thinking was to win overall (I know right) by beating all the other EC cars, it is becoming a big class by car count. The other cars A, B, & C didn’t even factor into the conversation as they would just test our race craft and patience. We wouldn’t even have to run the car but at 7/10th until the end. The draw to running EC was to try and beat other well-prepped race cars and win at INDY. Like it or not the way it runs now, perception is the reality. 

 

The weird part is, I like most of you don’t think highly of the EC cars running with Champcar for most of the discussed reasons in this post, not for being on track with us. We even had an EC 400HP 944 mess up a good race for us.  Time to re-think and talk with the team, we cut our teeth racing fast highly involved with a lot of prep and cost cars. Chumpcar is simple, always fun and way more race time by comparison.  

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2 hours ago, Huggy said:

Thats false,  It was definitely at Sebring in Dec 2018.

 

As I posted before, Nothing against Salens, they drove that car very respectfully at sebring from what I saw.

 

I just dont think we need to be letting cars equivalent to or faster than a e46M3 into the series.  Not our bag of tricks.

No caymans

No race prepped 370z

No e92 m's

No 911 cups

 

Not our pig, not our farm, lets stick to doing what we are best at.  Let those guys continue to race with AER or WRL.

Agree

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1 hour ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

all the time.. still dont see an unlimited class in IMSA where Audi brings out a LeMans car and destroys the field and claims victory.

 

They are bringing the 919 EVO to lemans this year right? /s

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4 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

Money should not buy you special treatment, either good or bad.  

Never insinuated special treatment and never would,  I just thought it could have been addressed  in a different way.   Ya know like bitching out an employee in front of co-workers, not cool.

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9 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Never insinuated special treatment and never would,  I just thought it could have been addressed  in a different way.   Ya know like bitching out an employee in front of co-workers, not cool.

This is probably a good time to point out what should be obvious but isn't.  If you ("you" in this context is any reader of this post, not DeeDee specifically) read a post that you think is "over the line" and doesn't belong in the forum, you should NOT reply to it.  You should PM the individual and tell them why you think the post isn't in the best interest of the club and ask him/her to edit or delete it.  If they do that before anyone replies, then the problematic information disappears from the internet forever.  On the other hand, if you choose to reply (and quote them in your reply), you've pretty much ensured that the statements that you wish they hadn't made are permanently in the record.

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18 hours ago, Jer said:

As a Board we are supposed to advocate for the members.  We have not ever felt like most or even more members want class racing as a focus.  Maybe we are off the mark but not to our knowledge 

While I do think the overall win needs to stay primary by a "large margin"  I also think there may some opportunities in the classes.     This is just an observation,  when ever someone brings up classes the BOD tends to slap it like a bug vs listening and looking for opportunity.     If its always shut down immediately it might be easy to think no one is interested.   

 

One thought that keeps stirring in my head is the idea of a limited prep class.  The main reason in my head is to keep the entry level into real competition low and accessible.   This class would be something like no cars over 400 or 450 points.  Aero limited to an  air dam in the front and a 6" spoiler in the rear.  No swaps.  Tire and wheel limits, something like a 7 inch wheels and 205 tires for a Miata.  (other cars would have appropriate limits as well)   No free point suspension bushings,  no free springs or altering suspension points for free.   

It would take some work to flesh out how it would work best and what the best limitations would be, but in my head it could be a really fun thing.   I would think in a 100 car field you'd see 30 some cars in this category and the rest in SuperChamp 500 point cars.  

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12 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

While I do think the overall win needs to stay primary by a "large margin"  I also think there may some opportunities in the classes.     This is just an observation,  when ever someone brings up classes the BOD tends to slap it like a bug vs listening and looking for opportunity.     If its always shut down immediately it might be easy to think no one is interested.   

 

One thought that keeps stirring in my head is the idea of a limited prep class.  The main reason in my head is to keep the entry level into real competition low and accessible.   This class would be something like no cars over 400 or 450 points.  Aero limited to an  air dam in the front and a 6" spoiler in the rear.  No swaps.  Tire and wheel limits, something like a 7 inch wheels and 205 tires for a Miata.  (other cars would have appropriate limits as well)   No free point suspension bushings,  no free springs or altering suspension points for free.   

It would take some work to flesh out how it would work best and what the best limitations would be, but in my head it could be a really fun thing.   I would think in a 100 car field you'd see 30 some cars in this category and the rest in SuperChamp 500 point cars.  

Troy wrote this proposal 18 months ago.  It had merit but a mixed reaction from membership.  Write it again.  

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32 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

While I do think the overall win needs to stay primary by a "large margin"  I also think there may some opportunities in the classes.     This is just an observation,  when ever someone brings up classes the BOD tends to slap it like a bug vs listening and looking for opportunity.     If its always shut down immediately it might be easy to think no one is interested.   

 

One thought that keeps stirring in my head is the idea of a limited prep class.  The main reason in my head is to keep the entry level into real competition low and accessible.   This class would be something like no cars over 400 or 450 points.  Aero limited to an  air dam in the front and a 6" spoiler in the rear.  No swaps.  Tire and wheel limits, something like a 7 inch wheels and 205 tires for a Miata.  (other cars would have appropriate limits as well)   No free point suspension bushings,  no free springs or altering suspension points for free.   

It would take some work to flesh out how it would work best and what the best limitations would be, but in my head it could be a really fun thing.   I would think in a 100 car field you'd see 30 some cars in this category and the rest in SuperChamp 500 point cars.  

 

I like this but my suggestion would be to have a list of approved "classic champ" cars and motor packages. I would target a lower power level and in my eyes aim for cars like.

 

1.8 miata stock engine

1.6 will need engine mods

2.0 neon with some mods (for sohc). Maybe 2.4 bone stock (150 hp) but this might be too much (research).

Integra non gsr engine (140is hp), no mods

Focus, stock engine. 

Add to list

 

Banning swaps and allowing a e30 m20 will just make this an specE30 class. Many other sub 450 point cars will not be able to match the power to weight without a swap. 

 

I think policing springs and bushings will be impossible. Most of your cost savings will come fromr being able to race these cheap cars with nearly stock or stock drivetrains, rather than having to swap around to chase 12:1 + pwr the series has merged to now. No aero is interesting and easy to do. 

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18 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I like this but my suggestion would be to have a list of approved "classic champ" cars and motor packages. I would target a lower power level and in my eyes aim for cars like.

 

1.8 miata stock engine

1.6 will need engine mods

2.0 neon with some mods (for sohc). Maybe 2.4 bone stock (150 hp) but this might be too much (research).

Integra non gsr engine (140is hp), no mods

Focus, stock engine. 

Add to list

 

Banning swaps and allowing a e30 m20 will just make this an specE30 class. Many other sub 450 point cars will not be able to match the power to weight without a swap. 

 

I think policing springs and bushings will be impossible. Most of your cost savings will come fromr being able to race these cheap cars with nearly stock or stock drivetrains, rather than having to swap around to chase 12:1 + pwr the series has merged to now. No aero is interesting and easy to do. 

 

Then don't allow E30 with M20.  Only 318 E30s allowed.  Those should be competitive with stock Miata.

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No, No, No, Please dear god NO.

 

Before we go off on this tangent of complicated new "classes" or rules, lets focus on improving what we already have by actually FOLLOWING our existing rules, by properly and clearly COMMUNICATING with our customers/members, and by improving the accuracy of our data within our current rule set.

 

image.png.4f4b44fbba8e79b11927d5e29143797d.png

 

2.2.2 = I assume champcar determined that the cayman and myriad of e46m3's allowed in ec arent "excessively superior" to standard champcars?  

2.2.4 = I assume these are the rules listed in 2.1?  Does a GT4 Cayman cup car meet rule 2.2.1?

 

image.png.dde63de226f2b9e0d8904d0a23630d42.png

 

 

Champcar should have enough on the plate already, what with digital tech and swap sheets, improving statistical tracking of VPI's, TCV's, and scoring, Champcar Live, trying to continually "resuscitate" the western regions, etc. 

Adding a complicated new classing system is not going to be a good business move IMO.

 

Stick to what we know.  Go back and assess the previous EC allowances and consider being more judicial with what meets rule 2.2.2, particularly in sold out east cost events or tracks where higher closing speeds can be achieved by cars with more power/wt than is normal in champcar.  Put that time and energy into improving communication with members on current rules - keep everyone in the loop if a new car or new part shows up at a race and a ruling is issued.  Keep up the improvements to champcar live, and keep up with race monitor/race hero.  Things are going in the right direction, lets not jump off the rails.

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We were able to run our 1.6 against m20 cars just fine before someone convinced the board that it was "cheaper" to allow teams to have free suspension and bushing kits....as they couldn't afford them points wise previously.  1.8 Miatas vs. a m20 car will be a great matchup

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1 minute ago, Huggy said:

No, No, No, Please dear god NO.

 

Before we go off on this tangent of complicated new "classes" or rules, lets focus on improving what we already have by actually FOLLOWING our existing rules, by properly and clearly COMMUNICATING with our customers/members, and by improving the accuracy of our data within our current rule set.

 

image.png.4f4b44fbba8e79b11927d5e29143797d.png

 

2.2.2 = I assume champcar determined that the cayman and myriad of e46m3's allowed in ec arent "excessively superior" to standard champcars?  

2.2.4 = I assume these are the rules listed in 2.1?  Does a GT4 Cayman cup car meet rule 2.2.1?

 

image.png.dde63de226f2b9e0d8904d0a23630d42.png

 

 

Champcar should have enough on the plate already, what with digital tech and swap sheets, improving statistical tracking of VPI's, TCV's, and scoring, Champcar Live, trying to continually "resuscitate" the western regions, etc. 

Adding a complicated new classing system is not going to be a good business move IMO.

 

Stick to what we know.  Go back and assess the previous EC allowances and consider being more judicial with what meets rule 2.2.2, particularly in sold out east cost events or tracks where higher closing speeds can be achieved by cars with more power/wt than is normal in champcar.  Put that time and energy into improving communication with members on current rules - keep everyone in the loop if a new car or new part shows up at a race and a ruling is issued.  Keep up the improvements to champcar live, and keep up with race monitor/race hero.  Things are going in the right direction, lets not jump off the rails.

I agree with you on this.  I feel more and more that the series as a whole has a problem with the word NO!  As in, No, you cannot bring your GT4 Porsche and race regardless if you are paying the entry fee because it doesn't and will never be in our rules to allow it.  No more "wait and see" approaches.  There are rules written as you have shown that state the procedure of assessing the values to an EC car, they need to be adhere'd too.

 

I question if this would be a protestable offense?  Meaning, could I protest the fact that these cars do not meet the rules as written and have the car taken out of the event?

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1 hour ago, Racer28173 said:

This is probably a good time to point out what should be obvious but isn't.  If you ("you" in this context is any reader of this post, not DeeDee specifically) read a post that you think is "over the line" and doesn't belong in the forum, you should NOT reply to it.  You should PM the individual and tell them why you think the post isn't in the best interest of the club and ask him/her to edit or delete it.  If they do that before anyone replies, then the problematic information disappears from the internet forever.  On the other hand, if you choose to reply (and quote them in your reply), you've pretty much ensured that the statements that you wish they hadn't made are permanently in the record.

 

There is an exception to this. If you are subscribed to a thread and wish to be notified when someone posts something, you will have a record of the original post, even if it is deleted. 

 

In any case, you are much more successful in influencing people when you take it offline. 

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Agree with @Huggy.  Lets figure out how to deal with EC before making drastic changes to the rest of the classes.   It looks like Mike and the board have already decided to change/add to  the rules posted.   Ex. - Vehicles participating in races must be on the VPI list..      Changing the classes may just create more EC cars.....

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1 minute ago, hotchkis23 said:

 

I question if this would be a protestable offense?  Meaning, could I protest the fact that these cars do not meet the rules as written and have the car taken out of the event?

 

I don't think you can protest pre race.        

 

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14 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Before we go off on this tangent of complicated new "classes" or rules, lets

I,  would not propose complicated classes.    What I would contemplate is a simplification from 4 to 2.  And limited prep would be simple.  In my head it would include the line “ if it doesn’t say you can you can’t”.    I’d have to keep

it simple so I could understand it.   🤪

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7 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I,  would not propose complicated classes.    What I would contemplate is a simplification from 4 to 2.  And limited prep would be simple.  In my head it would include the line “ if it doesn’t say you can you can’t”.    I’d have to keep

it simple so I could understand it.   🤪

But we are here because of the call to improve our 2010 crapcans...

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