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Bill Strong

Handling EC cars in our series - Part 2

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4 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

But we are here because of the call to improve our 2010 crapcans...

And that’s why there would be Superchamp 500 point cars.   Improve away.   Zero changes to what your doing.   But allows those new to this or just not as ambitious to run and compete with less $$ and time.  

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2 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

We were able to run our 1.6 against m20 cars just fine before someone convinced the board that it was "cheaper" to allow teams to have free suspension and bushing kits....as they couldn't afford them points wise previously.  1.8 Miatas vs. a m20 car will be a great matchup

 

Maybe a regional thing. Gingerman and a few other really short tracks I could see that. I don't think you would want to drag race the GWR car down the long straights at most of the east coast event like VIR, Rd ATL, Glen, Charlotte, Daytona...... A 4 cyl e30 might be a better fit as suggested, assuming that isn't too much of a power drop for them.

 

This is assuming stockish non swapped motors. If you are doing cams\intake\header I don't think the money or the control is any better than a totally stock swapped engine. 

 

This isn't meant to change anything for the guys willing to buy into the current level of champcar prep\power to weights\car type needed to win. You could even stack these classes up without any lap differences in the overall results (obviously harder for a classic car to win, but so what). But it would give the bottom half of the field from a economic standpoint a sandbox to play in to have a side race against each other. This is sort of what the random classes do now, as they offer a side race for B an D class (which do not win as often) cars not otherwise economically or technically prepared to the upper level of champ.

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I would be interested in this type of two class system. Champ and Super Champ. Champ with no swaps allowed, under a certain number of points and every single component upgrade assigned a realistic point value, tire width and diameter limit etc.

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I’ve thought for awhile the class structure is unbalanced. Why is B class .5L but C class is 1.5L. I’d suggest something along the lines of:

 

A- <1.99L

B- 2.0-2.91L

C-2.92-3.8L

D- >3.81

 

I May be slightly off on numbers, but I think this would give more people a chance in their class. It also divides up C class which encompasses too many cars. 

 

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34 minutes ago, jakks said:

I’ve thought for awhile the class structure is unbalanced. Why is B class .5L but C class is 1.5L. I’d suggest something along the lines of:

 

A- <1.99L

B- 2.0-2.91L

C-2.92-3.8L

D- >3.81

 

I May be slightly off on numbers, but I think this would give more people a chance in their class. It also divides up C class which encompasses too many cars. 

 

If you wanted to make an even distribution of cars in each class, the one that includes 2.5 should basically be 2.4 to 2.6. The ranges you just posted would make for a huuuuge B class and almost no C class.

Classes evenly broken up by displacement ignores the reality that there are a lot of 1.8s, and TONS of 2.5s.

 

Also, this post does not endorse classes of any kind, I am merely addressing an inaccuracy that I saw. I don’t care what the classes are, so long as they are a race within the real race.

 

How about a classing system like this that is completely independent of car choice:

Veterans & race winners    /   Average champs    /     N00bs

 

(I’m actually very opposed to changing the classes)

Edited by enginerd

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21 minutes ago, enginerd said:

(I’m actually very opposed to changing the classes)

 

I'm still sad  that Champcar deleted the secret DD class for elusive boosted V8s. 

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27 minutes ago, enginerd said:

 

How about a classing system like this that is completely independent of car choice:

Veterans & race winners    /   Average champs    /     N00bs

 

(I’m actually very opposed to changing the classes)

 

Cool! How long can I stay in n00b class? 

 

I like the classes because our best shot where we usually run is to do well in A class, we'll probably never be close to the overall podium. I'd be open to a new class structure but have no suggestions of my own, I just wouldn't want to have the series too segregated by whatever structure is put in place (if any).

 

 

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10 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

I'm still sad  that Champcar deleted the secret DD class for elusive boosted V8s. 

 

I think we can all agree that every racing series would be better with more double Ds.....

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16 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

Does DD gets extra points to play with?   😁

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-95-Mustang-Cobra-Kenne-Bell-Supercharger-/183829937019

 

Just high cost of acquisition, poor trade in value after many years and higher than normal maintenance costs despite more rapid than normal chassis wear.

 

Sort of like real life.....😇

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6 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Just high cost of acquisition

 

have you seen our car?  clearly we make poor money decisions. 

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What is our intent with having classes?

 

If our intent was that all A cars are capable of running similar lap times, and are (mostly) slower than B cars,

which are slower than C cars, and D cars.  Seems that was the intention as an A displacement car with a turbo

gets bumped to B, seems that (at least initially) the classes were supposed to keep cars grouped by similar

lap times.  Well, that isn’t happening. Some A class cars are way faster than most any other car, and I’ve not seen

a D class car win an overall.  It’s very clear that engine displacement is not a good grouping of lap times.

 

Why not use something like they do in motorbike racing?

     Stock - any car on the VPI list but with only OE parts (that includes wheels, suspension, motor, trans, exhaust, everything).

                              Tires limited to 180tw. Keeps cost of entry low,  no displacement limits.  Jus need to be on the VPI list, no swaps.

     Superstock - cars on VPI list but limited non-OE mods allow (wheels, suspension, exhaust).  Tires stay at 180tw, no swaps.

     Supercar - cars on VPI list, unlimited mods.  Motor swaps, aftermarket force induction, aero,  you name it.  Run any tires you can afford.

     Unlimited - any road car (doesn’t have to be on the VPI list), with unlimited mods, any tires.

                              This would rule out purpose-built, tube frame race cars, etc.

 

need to think bout speed differences, so obviously some mods to the outline shown above, and probably don’t want to allow

a new 911 GT2 out there turning laps with my slow-ass Audi A4, so some limits are in order - let Champ decide at race entry time

to decline an Unlimited car if deemed too fast for our series, but this type class structure gives:

     - low cost of entry for new racers (Stock class)

     - ways for Stock class cars to “grow” if their teams want to go faster, compete for overalls (Stock to Superstock to Supercar)

     - gives racers from other series a legal way to come race with us, jus slot them in based on mods and car year/model

     - still has 4 class trophies and an overall (5 total)

     - still includes cars of all different makes and models in same class

Edited by Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com

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10 minutes ago, Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com said:

What is our intent with having classes?

Back in 2013 (maybe?) John Condren introduced sprint racing. 40 minute races IIRC.

 

He surmised (somewhat inaccurately) that large displacement cars would turn faster lap times and win all the sprint races because they wouldn't be limited by the gas guzzling nature of their large engines. To make things fair for the small displacement, fuel sippers, he put them into a different class (A class) and broke all the cars up 4 ways.

 

Sprint racing was a somewhat failed endeavor, which I think was partially due to it being paired with the ChampTruck series (which failed).

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Maybe we are overlooking the simplest way to deal with penalty laps and EC cars. If you are over 500 points and you have penalty laps then you literally do not start the race until your laps are up. Start on lap 5 or lap 8 or whatever. EC cars start on lap 10 or whatever is appropriate for the track length. As an EC car, I am not opposed to waiting 10 laps or so to run a 14 hour or longer race. Keeps everyone on level ground and the speedy or cheaty cars have to play catch up the rest of the day. Tada, you're welcome.

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On 5/30/2019 at 10:01 AM, Snake said:

 

Not to be a dick but I would hope your ex continental series mustang would not be welcome at a champcar race.   Just like I would hope my ACR-X wouldn't be welcome.    Its outright dangerous and if you can't see that then you are the guy that wants to just come out and be at the top of the standings for bragging rights while not evening attempting to play by the rules. 

 

Same care for the most part has already been welcomed for 2 races I think? Im not the first to do this.

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21 hours ago, BigMoneyWasters said:

Maybe we are overlooking the simplest way to deal with penalty laps and EC cars. If you are over 500 points and you have penalty laps then you literally do not start the race until your laps are up. Start on lap 5 or lap 8 or whatever. EC cars start on lap 10 or whatever is appropriate for the track length. As an EC car, I am not opposed to waiting 10 laps or so to run a 14 hour or longer race. Keeps everyone on level ground and the speedy or cheaty cars have to play catch up the rest of the day. Tada, you're welcome.

 

Yuck.

 

If it's a double 8 at Road America a 550 point car looses 20 minutes of track time per day.  No thanks.

 

Not to mention you need a bunch of staff to babysit all the cars at the end of pit road, and release them on their respective laps, while also not blocking pit out.

 

Nope, no thanks.

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12 hours ago, the5 said:

 

Same care for the most part has already been welcomed for 2 races I think? Im not the first to do this.

 

 

That is down right laughable. 

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On 6/1/2019 at 7:27 PM, Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com said:

What is our intent with having classes?

 

If our intent was that all A cars are capable of running similar lap times, and are (mostly) slower than B cars,

which are slower than C cars, and D cars.  Seems that was the intention as an A displacement car with a turbo

gets bumped to B, seems that (at least initially) the classes were supposed to keep cars grouped by similar

lap times.  Well, that isn’t happening. Some A class cars are way faster than most any other car, and I’ve not seen

a D class car win an overall.  It’s very clear that engine displacement is not a good grouping of lap times.

 

Whatever the intent was, that is not the intent now.  Now it gives teams a chance to race against similar displacement vehicles inside our larger race for the podium, also gives a few more teams a chance to collect some hardware.  Everyone in ABCD is still racing against the entire field for the overall win which is one thing that makes this series unique.  I'm not interested in being in "stock" class and being doomed to being crushed by the faster classes. 

 

D class won the 24 at Utah last year.  Though it wasn't invented yet the 25 at Nelson in 2012 would also have been won by D class.  I'm sure there are others.  Most of the popular spec cars end up in C or A leaving more opportunity in D or B for a class win.  Of course at any given race you may find a ringer in B or D it's just the nature of the game.

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Two things to point out.

Classes
I jumped into CC as a renter in 2016 which was great. I've done a number of races since and it took me probably 2 years before I realized the classes really didn't mean much. Perception to me as a new driver was that classes were roughly going to be based upon lap times because, well...that's how every series I knew worked! Seems silly to me, but CC always seems to portray classes as important but then the rules make specific vehicles class winners and overall is de-emphasized by EC.

EC
I've been working on a build and to start out, I'm thinking EC being the overall winners for a good while has push others to build EC cars including myself. It was easier to justify not removing fast bits my buddy had already purchased before our project started than to argue about it. We'll race in EC for a while and then we'll probably get down to running in classes or we'll take penalty laps, either way is fine. However, I see the EC class winning and now if I want to win, well I would have to build an EC class. Keeping them at the top, makes more people build EC cars regardless and in my opinion, changes the magic of CC. Split T&S or significant penalty laps are the only sensible reason to keep the series creeping into WRL territory year after year. I'm not all that seasoned and I've seen a significant jump in EC entries. Perception is absolutely reality, as is evident by peoples posts about their resulting "victories" in ChampCar races while being EC cars. You can't leave things as is without harming the series long term, because eventually everyone will want to run in EC just to compete.

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57 minutes ago, Morgan said:


EC
I've been working on a build and to start out, I'm thinking EC being the overall winners for a good while has push others to build EC cars including myself. It was easier to justify not removing fast bits my buddy had already purchased before our project started than to argue about it. We'll race in EC for a while and then we'll probably get down to running in classes or we'll take penalty laps, either way is fine. However, I see the EC class winning and now if I want to win, well I would have to build an EC class. Keeping them at the top, makes more people build EC cars regardless and in my opinion, changes the magic of CC. Split T&S or significant penalty laps are the only sensible reason to keep the series creeping into WRL territory year after year. I'm not all that seasoned and I've seen a significant jump in EC entries. Perception is absolutely reality, as is evident by peoples posts about their resulting "victories" in ChampCar races while being EC cars. You can't leave things as is without harming the series long term, because eventually everyone will want to run in EC just to compete.

 

I'm guessing you never went to an awards ceremony to see that only the top 3 Champ class cars got trophies and the winner of the EC might get a trophy if there are 5 or more entries but is not awarded the race winner 1st place trophy.

 

Also, if you think you're winning any race in Champ class or EC without being a seasoned road racer nowadays you're probably in for a surprise. There are a lot of great road racers here and it takes a lot more than a fast car to get on the podium.  

Edited by skierman64
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4 hours ago, Morgan said:

You can't leave things as is without harming the series long term, because eventually everyone will want to run in EC just to compete.

This seems to me to be your real point, or at least the most important one you're making.   

 

Fortunately is sounds like (Per Jer) the situation is being fixed very soon.

 

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13 hours ago, Snake said:

 

 

That is down right laughable. 

 

That's the RVA graphics Mustang. It was fast on the Autoclub roval. But did not win the race.
It did a 1:56 vs the Doorslammers Miata 1:54 FTD on Saturday.  The Mustang finished 6th. 
Sunday's race saw the same exact time for the Team Like a Boss (RVA Graphics) but they finished 3rd as there was attrition on Sunday. FTD for the race was a 1:54.388 from the Uncommon Friends 1971 Datsun 240Z.
https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Events/1615413

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58 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

That's the RVA graphics Mustang. It was fast on the Autoclub roval. But did not win the race.
It did a 1:56 vs the Doorslammers Miata 1:54 FTD on Saturday.  The Mustang finished 6th. 
Sunday's race saw the same exact time for the Team Like a Boss (RVA Graphics) but they finished 3rd as there was attrition on Sunday. FTD for the race was a 1:54.388 from the Uncommon Friends 1971 Datsun 240Z.
https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Events/1615413

 

I keep harping to people that Champ Cars are way faster than people think, especially for how they look.

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8 hours ago, skierman64 said:

 

I'm guessing you never went to an awards ceremony to see that only the top 3 Champ class cars got trophies and the winner of the EC might get a trophy if there are 5 or more entries but is not awarded the race winner 1st place trophy.

 

Also, if you think you're winning any race in Champ class or EC without being a seasoned road racer nowadays you're probably in for a surprise. There are a lot of great road racers here and it takes a lot more than a fast car to get on the podium.  

 

I've been to a number of the awards ceremonies and even so, EC was always presented as the overall winner, because, well they're first and they got a trophy. Then the classes following that. Nobody said I was planning on winning with a new car and a new team, in fact I fully expect to not. For our team, EC is just a way to get the team some experience to then figure out how to be competitive.

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