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JDChristianson

What if there were only 2 classes?

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16 minutes ago, Richard said:

 You don't think the million dollar budget has anything to do with the Tuttle Eclipses and Sahlen's Boxster from finishing 1-2-3, at The Glen?

 

It definitely helped, but.... I also dont think they are out of reach for a team on a reasonable budget (we, and you, were within striking distance on Sunday, and we know a few strategy errors that could put us even closer).  I agree with @Team Infiniti that money doesnt dominate as long as they show up within the rules and the series does a decent job of keeping that in check.  I dont think theres any argument that going faster costs more, my general point is that is the racing better (worth the extra cost) at a faster pace?  I don't believe so. 

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I think one thing that keeps getting glossed over is the speed difference of tires now vs 5-10 years ago. Given the same size tire on the same car, same day, same driver an RS4 is what? 3 seconds a lap? faster than an RS3, and sticks around longer when pushing it?

 

Yes as a series we're putting wider and wider tires on and more and more aero, and that does accelerate the speed creep, but even just the skillset that some teams have learned (crash kits, spares, logistics, strategy, etc) have made the series faster too.

 

Put any top 5 team in a mid-pack car and they can run towards the front, and that's part of what I love so much about this series.

Edited by Wittenauer Racing
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11 minutes ago, Snake said:

You still haven't pointed out whats wrong with the classes.

Well I personally think the current classes are a complete afterthought. Basing classes solely on displacement leaves out many many factors about a platform’s performance capabilities.   Power is even ignored.   Modern engines are generally more powerful per liter than older ones yet a modern x liter engine is the same class as an old x liter engine.      

 

I dont really care for having that many classes either.   I personally like running against a big group like many others. I would like to see a less costly option.   I assume you didn’t read that last sentence 😀.      I think a couple levels based on prep levels could provide great competition for more people.  Our cars would not fall into the limited prep category so my ideas are really not about our team.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Tuttle didn’t win because of $$$, Tuttle won because we haven’t implemented a rule/method for banning race gas.

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3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Tuttle didn’t win because of $$$, Tuttle won because we haven’t implemented a rule/method for banning race gas.

 

I think we are very fortunate he runs a difficult platform to compete in. Plenty of other choices would have allowed a better buy in performance differential.

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53 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Well I personally think the current classes are a complete afterthought. Basing classes solely on displacement leaves out many many factors about a platform’s performance capabilities.   Power is even ignored.   Modern engines are generally more powerful per liter than older ones yet a modern x liter engine is the same class as an old x liter engine.      

 

I dont really care for having that many classes either.   I personally like running against a big group like many others. I would like to see a less costly option.   I assume you didn’t read that last sentence 😀.      I think a couple levels based on prep levels could provide great competition for more people.  Our cars would not fall into the limited prep category so my ideas are really not about our team.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you want to race wrl?

 

We don't have classes.  Never did.  

 

There are participation trophies for cars with displacements other than 2.5 liters.  

 

We don't need classes.  

 

Since we don't need classes, I don't care if a couple of small trophies get handed out or not.

 

If your problem statement is:  "we need a less costly option", talking about classes is not the direction I would go.

 

I would limit and pull back some of the free shizz...

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59 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Do you want to race wrl?

 

We don't have classes.  Never did.  

 

There are participation trophies for cars with displacements other than 2.5 liters.  

 

We don't need classes.  

 

Since we don't need classes, I don't care if a couple of small trophies get handed out or not.

 

If your problem statement is:  "we need a less costly option", talking about classes is not the direction I would go.

 

I would limit and pull back some of the free shizz...

I don’t disagree Rob.  I fear that adding points to things that people have had in place for a while will be pretty difficult.   

 

 

 I don’t want to race WRL.  Not proposing lots of classes. My thoughts are fewer classes than we have now. 

 

edited in attempt to be more diplomatic.     Just talking about these things, I find it interesting to see everyone's idea's

Edited by JDChristianson

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Do you want to race wrl?

 

We don't have classes.  Never did.  

 

There are participation trophies for cars with displacements other than 2.5 liters.  

 

We don't need classes.  

 

Since we don't need classes, I don't care if a couple of small trophies get handed out or not.

 

If your problem statement is:  "we need a less costly option", talking about classes is not the direction I would go.

 

I would limit and pull back some of the free shizz...

 

Fundamental difference in the series is this....

 

Would people agree to set the target pwr for a car with no laps 2 whole points higher (more like 14.5 :1 as raced). This would radically reduce the barrier to entry of a reasonably competitive car. Imagine a spec miata 1.6 being competitive as is. Right now ecotec miata or 150 whp builds seem to be the path you would have to recommend if a new guy said "i have a 1.6 miata, one of the easier cars to find caged and ready to run, and want to be competitive". If they want to compete with other cars and not have to swap their entire powertrain package (engine, clutch, maybe trans and swap to 1.8 diff) their best option is to go to lemons, which i don't like as a response from us as a "budget series". 

 

Alot of people will want to keep the power and speed where it is. Alot don't. Two classes might be the only way to appease both. The irony will be when another series pops up to offer "real cheap racing" for people willing to drive lower power\speed cars to offer a cheaper price point per stint.....

Edited by Black Magic
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6 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 The irony will be when another series pops up to offer "real cheap racing" for people willing to drive lower power\speed cars to offer a cheaper price point per stint.....

 

I believe that may be the future.

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4 hours ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

Im not saying we need to fundamentally change the brand of the series.  But if you look at the recent results of WGI we were 14th in fastest lap with 2:17.  Even just 3 years ago in 2016 we would have had the 3rd fastest lap time.  Even for a top team/perennial favorite like Simon Says it starts getting pretty hard to compete without going all in on their car (im putting words in their mouth here, but seems that way from my point of view).  Or look at Mopar4life, Those guys were fast and consistent, but Im just not sure they could keep doing that in a Neon (Im sure they could, but it certainly would be a lot tougher speed wise).

 

I also dont believe the racing is any better at a 2:15 (2:12??!!) lap compared to a 2:20.  In fact, I would bet it would get harder if that was the standard set.

 

No, the neon was getting tired and we were taking more chances, and we’re driving more on the limit. 

 

We needed a true hardcore, designed from the ground up contender that ticked all the boxes. 

 

Naturally the PT turbo cruiser platform was a no brainer. 

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Well I personally think the current classes are a complete afterthought. Basing classes solely on displacement leaves out many many factors about a platform’s performance capabilities.   Power is even ignored.   Modern engines are generally more powerful per liter than older ones yet a modern x liter engine is the same class as an old x liter engine.      

 

I dont really care for having that many classes either.   I personally like running against a big group like many others. I would like to see a less costly option.   I assume you didn’t read that last sentence 😀.      I think a couple levels based on prep levels could provide great competition for more people.  Our cars would not fall into the limited prep category so my ideas are really not about our team.   

 

 

Less costly how?   If you start with a low VPI car you can still spend a bunch of $$ and be under 400.  We've done it, we could spend even more, keep the same exact VPI and go for overalls with the 626.  I think we are like 370 VPI.     You can't stop people from spending $$$ if they really want to.  But, money doesn't buy talent and results.   We have examples of that in the series already.   I believe you think it does.   It definitely doesn't hurt but you still have to be able to drive and execute. 

 

I thought the goal of Champcar was for everyone to build to the same rule set (until this year) and compete for overalls against each other?   That's what I keep hearing over and over again.  Class racing is secondary where as in WRL its primary.  If you don't think classes matter and you'd like to eliminate them then say that.   Everyone go after the big trophy's and the hell with everything else.   I personally think that's a bad idea but I'm just 1 person.   

 

The bigger issue is now there are different sets of rules for different cars and that is a HUGE issue imo.    If you wanna start separating car by anything we should start by the rule set they are following.   

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4 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

I don’t disagree Rob.  I fear that adding points to things that people have had in place for a while will be pretty difficult.   

 

 

 I don’t want to race WRL.  Not proposing lots of classes. My thoughts are fewer classes than we have now. 

 

edited in attempt to be more diplomatic.     Just talking about these things, I find it interesting to see everyone's idea's

I hope you didn't think I was attacking you.  It wasn't meant to be that.

 

I think I see where you are headed with this thought process.  I am a big prop9nent of making this series a bit slower and less expensive.  I'm just not sure 2 classes is the way to do it.  

 

I would essentially like to see the secondary class you propose as the only class.  However, that will lead to 2 things.

 

1) the people with all their points used will probably go elsewhere.

2) car choice will be even more important and there will likely be even less variation in the cars chosen.

 

I agree with @Black Magic that changing the swap target pwr would help.  See point 1 above.

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9 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Limiting to 400 points

 

I like this 400 number.. I already have my car picked out!! 

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I hope you didn't think I was attacking you.  It wasn't meant to be that.

 

I think I see where you are headed with this thought process.  I am a big prop9nent of making this series a bit slower and less expensive.  I'm just not sure 2 classes is the way to do it.  

 

I would essentially like to see the secondary class you propose as the only class.  However, that will lead to 2 things.

 

1) the people with all their points used will probably go elsewhere.

2) car choice will be even more important and there will likely be even less variation in the cars chosen.

 

I agree with @Black Magic that changing the swap target pwr would help.  See point 1 above.

I agree.  Changing the swap pwr is sorta tough now that it’s offically a power to fudge ratio.   

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7 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I agree.  Changing the swap pwr is sorta tough now that it’s offically a power to fudge ratio.   

There is more to it, modifying the pwr formula could have unintended consequence, such as, we may now have approved, newer vpi list cars in street stock configuration that are more powerful...

 

Now what?

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17 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

There is more to it, modifying the pwr formula could have unintended consequence, such as, we may now have approved, newer vpi list cars in street stock configuration that are more powerful...

 

Now what?

You are correct.  I meant to agree more with Robs bigger picture idea.   Changing the pointy end would gore to many oxen    The speed of the pointy end is like the cat getting out of the bag and riding the horse out of the barn.   

 

Im pretty sure for the foreseeable future nothing will change and that’s ok.  Especially if the bottom two thirds is happy being there or is replaced by new glossy eyed hopefuls that are having fun and paying the bills for the pointy end.      

 

Im happy the way things are now for the most part.  Just a little leary on how long it will last.  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Just a little leary

Fully understand, honestly, the cost of this fun is getting daunting but also foresee no way to turn back time, un-experiance the experienced, un-profesional the pros, nor how to stifle innovation within the rules.

 

Using what already exists to base this commentary off of....What happens when the rules are written rigidly, spec SCCA style? All innovation and tons of $$ are thrown at nuances of stock engine builds, buying 30 shocks/rocker arms/pistons etc. to get the most matched set.

 

What does the future hold? No clue, but I really do trust the folks in charge, as we all know, they are not only racers, but extremely passionate, regardless if we all agree or not, Champ is in good hands, good racers can adapt to anything.

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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7 hours ago, enginerd said:

Tuttle didn’t win because of $$$, Tuttle won because we haven’t implemented a rule/method for banning race gas.

They were fast on the straights, but they seemed slower than Road Atlanta, and equal to the BMWs.  They were very fast in the corners and I don't think that was due to race gas.

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2 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

They were fast on the straights, but they seemed slower than Road Atlanta, and equal to the BMWs.  They were very fast in the corners and I don't think that was due to race gas.

That's interesting. They ran a :42 at Road Atlanta, which we (and I believe you) also ran. 

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11 hours ago, Snorman said:

That's interesting. They ran a :42 at Road Atlanta, which we (and I believe you) also ran. 

I just recall them being much faster on the straights at Road Atlanta where at WGI they didn't seem to pull us as much on the straights.  I also noticed extreme torque steer at Road Atlanta which I assume was due to them putting down more power, I didn't see any of that at WGI.  All of that said, race gas or not, I believe they won that race straight up through strategy and great driving given everything I saw.

 

WGI:

 

 

Road Atlanta:

 

Edited by LuckyKid
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13 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

I agree.  Changing the swap pwr is sorta tough now that it’s offically a power to fudge ratio.   

 

When i said to move the pwr target, a majority of the cars i had in mind are non swapped. 

 

I don't think swaps are the issue, infact non weight fudged swaps for some platforms are at a deficit to some 500 point cars. 

 

The tough sell will be targeting a new 500 point pwr, and moving non swapped cars above that pwr to taking laps......

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On 6/8/2019 at 9:09 AM, Black Magic said:

 

When i said to move the pwr target, a majority of the cars i had in mind are non swapped. 

 

I don't think swaps are the issue, infact non weight fudged swaps for some platforms are at a deficit to some 500 point cars. 

 

The tough sell will be targeting a new 500 point pwr, and moving non swapped cars above that pwr to taking laps......

 

Swaps are not the issue.   Certain swaps getting preferential treatment being able to circumvent the formulas/rules are.  

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This is deja vu from Troy's points based class petition and the discussions that came out of it.  I'll just reiterate what I said there with some tweaks:

 

1. I do not think we need to incentivize teams to build slower cars, it will only exacerbate to growing speed differentials we are seeing today.

2. Increased tire width can save you money due to the wider tire having more heat capacity which can improve tire life if you are overheating your stock-width tires.

     Yes you could just go slower, but who at the front of even a limited prep class will do that?

      Wider tires is one of the easiest ways to improve your car (low hanging fruit = accessible to everyone) 

      New tire compounds that come out every few years are one of the main contributes to speed creep.

3. I don't think aero is as effective in Champcar as people think it is, but it ends up being a scapegoat for speed creep over and over again.

     Its main use is to give amateur drivers like myself more confidence in high speed corners, which is usually where the most laptime can be found.

     The trade-off is reduced top speed, which can make it very hard to run fast laps in traffic.

     Champcars do not have enough horsepower to take advantage of crazy time-attack style aero. There is a reason those cars have and need 1000hp.

     Aero can also be very cheap due to plywood being very cheap.  There are a lot more cheap wing options on the market now.

4.  The thing that isn't talked about enough is the tried and true driver mod. 

     Here is a really good blog post about the value of the driver: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets3.html.  It is about autocross, but it also applies here.

     A lot of the speed creep we have seen is just due to better driving.

     Every race I've done so far I have improved my fastest lap.  Some of that is car tweaks, but a lot of it is confidence.

 

You don't need giant car haulers, paid crew, and $50,000 cars to win in Champcar, and I have no issues with teams having any of those things.

I've been crewing and driving for GWR for around four years now.  That car is primarily built by two guys in a two car garage with the help of friends, a Hobart MIG welder, and a lot of beers.  Our win at the Glen recently did not involve any pro drivers, paid crew, race fuel, or engine swaps.  Chris and Will have been trying to win the Glen for 5 years and they finally got there through a lot of small changes that make the car reliable and very easy to drive at the limit.

 

No matter what you do, a team that is brand new to motorsports will not be able show up and fight for the win their first time out.  Its one of those things you have to learn by doing.  That might have been possible 10 years ago, but everyone was new to it back then.

Edited by Scribe
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