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JDChristianson

What if there were only 2 classes?

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2 hours ago, tommytipover said:

Any rule or fixed point value can be walked back. If you're worried about alienating people, do it by slowly increasing the point value, or by announcing a date in the future when a change will take effect ( like dash bars in the roll cage.) IMO throwing our hands in the air and saying "the cat's out of the bag." in unacceptable.

 

I have an idea- let's just re-write the rule book every year so that nobody will be legal...

ever again...

Edited by chip

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

We used to do this, looking for chips and the like.  Again, free stuff that maybe shouldn't have been given away. 

 

It's all sort of bizarre to me, because I was not racing at all during the time all the free stuff given out.  I ran one race over a two year period as we were in the middle a custody battle that made a bunch of lawyers rich.  I came back to racing and the landscape had changed dramatically.  :(

Sounds like we're on the same side here, Jer.

 

How much did it cost you to catch up?

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

The series is not going to go back to the 2015 ruleset no matter how many times you ask for that.  Update your car and come racing. 

Actually, what I have said many times is that the Fiero has moved on to another series. My current car is at Champ car spec and ready to go when Champ runs a race close enough for me to attend without breaking the bank. 

 

No skin off my nose if you want to ignore what is being said by me and others (including you from the sound of it) about freebies. :)

Edited by mender

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

 And if we shut down the VPI list to super old cars, we will not grow and in fact will lose teams like MOPAR4LIFE, who built a newer car to replace the old one they could not find.  

 

I think you were looking for "built a new car because the rules have made the platform very difficult to compete in at the power levels the series has moved to....

 

"We came to the conclusion as a team that the neon was getting near its limit in relation to other newer cars entering the field. Even if the points dropped it could only help so much as engine wise we were near max what we could achieve without the fear of breaking more stuff or replacing parts faster."

 

I totally agree that it isn't feasible to go back for the top level teams. One of the times mender and i don't agree (we often do). Lots of guys at the top like going faster, and that is ok. I would most likely field a Jr class Neon for some of my teammates and from time to time bring out my car as a regular class entry. I sort of relish in the challenge of a very difficult car to win in doing well (mixed with moments of harsh reality that throwing money into a new build of the right kind of car is the more likely way to win). My desire for maximum track time and competition at a more reasonable wallet standpoint sort of leans towards more Jr class races.....

 

If you have interest in doing a gentleman's race inside the actual race with "Jr" class cars let me know. Some of us are talking already, but only a few and could use more input. Totally unofficial, totally for fun, but a way to have a rabbit to chase for cars built to be cheap entry points to race and build up skill. Thinking of making a list amongst ourselves of teams competing at this "level" and sharing it before a race to know who our competition is to watch for\race hard\tell lies about over beer after the race....

 

This isn't going to break up the one class racing, it's unofficial and these teams were never really in competition with the top teams anyway....

 

 

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Just now, Black Magic said:

 

I think you were looking for "built a new car because the rules have made the platform very difficult to compete in at the power levels the series has moved to....

 

"We came to the conclusion as a team that the neon was getting near its limit in relation to other newer cars entering the field. Even if the points dropped it could only help so much as engine wise we were near max what we could achieve without the fear of breaking more stuff or replacing parts faster."

 

I totally agree that it isn't feasible to go back for the top level teams. One of the times mender and i don't agree (we often do). Lots of guys at the top like going faster, and that is ok. I would most likely field a Jr class Neon for some of my teammates and from time to time bring out my car as a regular class entry. I sort of relish in the challenge of a very difficult car to win in doing well (mixed with moments of harsh reality that throwing money into a new build of the right kind of car is the more likely way to win). My desire for maximum track time and competition at a more reasonable wallet standpoint sort of leans towards more Jr class races.....

 

If you have interest in doing a gentleman's race inside the actual race with "Jr" class cars let me know. Some of us are talking already, but only a few and could use more input. Totally unofficial, totally for fun, but a way to have a rabbit to chase for cars built to be cheap entry points to race and build up skill. Thinking of making a list amongst ourselves of teams competing at this "level" and sharing it before a race to know who our competition is to watch for\race hard\tell lies about over beer after the race....

 

This isn't going to break up the one class racing, it's unofficial and these teams were never really in competition with the top teams anyway....

This would be pretty interesting.  We are always looking for ways to make the series better.  Please keep me apprised!  

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2 minutes ago, Jer said:

This would be pretty interesting.  We are always looking for ways to make the series better.  Please keep me apprised!  

 

Will do. I think that group of people would be less pushy about the overall results, and about anything being official. Could keep up the one class thing but offer a training ground for guys to get more hooked in.

Edited by Black Magic

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Just now, Black Magic said:

 

Will do. I think that group of people would be less pushy about the overall results, and about anything being official. Could keep up the one class thing but offer a training ground for guys to get more hooked in.

It could be the lead in to changing classing too.  Just spitballing.  

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

It could be the lead in to changing classing too.  Just spitballing.  

 

Totally with ya. 

 

Three of us started messaging and my thought was i could see two separate levels to make the Jr class in terms of rough power to weight. I think sort of roughing in a target range by picking one of these would help the rest of the parts fall in place. My message :

 

"I think we would need to think about the target power to weight. I see options at stock 1.6 miata\stock sohc 2.0 neon\sohc civic\stock focus (130ish hp in typical 2500lbs oem curb weight cars) , and another distinct set of cars at 1.8 NA8 miata (with bolt on like header) stock 2.4 swapped neon (maybe intake swap to clear hood), 140 hp spec integra motor with a bolt on like headers only and cars sort of just below or maybe at m20 e30 power. The second group is in the 150 to 160 hp for typical 2500 lbs oem curb weight (scale power target with weight obviously)"

 

Open to debate, but i think several people would like a no aero rule for Jr class cars as well. We could lower the vpi limit as well, but with a limit on motor mods i think people wouldn't need that many points anyway. 

Edited by Black Magic
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54 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Totally with ya. 

 

Three of us started messaging and my thought was i could see two separate levels to make the Jr class in terms of rough power to weight. I think sort of roughing in a target range by picking one of these would help the rest of the parts fall in place. My message :

 

"I think we would need to think about the target power to weight. I see options at stock 1.6 miata\stock sohc 2.0 neon\sohc civic\stock focus (130ish hp in typical 2500lbs oem curb weight cars) , and another distinct set of cars at 1.8 NA8 miata (with bolt on like header) stock 2.4 swapped neon (maybe intake swap to clear hood), 140 hp spec integra motor with a bolt on like headers only and cars sort of just below or maybe at m20 e30 power. The second group is in the 150 to 160 hp for typical 2500 lbs oem curb weight (scale power target with weight obviously)"

 

Open to debate, but i think several people would like a no aero rule for Jr class cars as well. We could lower the vpi limit as well, but with a limit on motor mods i think people wouldn't need that many points anyway. 

You would be better off limiting prep or keeping points to a limit.  We are not ever going to do PTW as a classification.  There's another series that does that.  

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18 minutes ago, Jer said:

You would be better off limiting prep or keeping points to a limit.  We are not ever going to do PTW as a classification.  There's another series that does that.  

 

No weigh in and no dyno. This is to figure out what cars\swaps are allowed, not have 5 miatas weighing different weights have different power. 

 

No different than the power to weight math tac/tech looks at now to help set vpi, just targeting a different level (sub or near m20 e30, not m50 e30 like current rules).

 

In my mind all powertrain combos\mods allowed would be listed. You could still work off points or give a vpi for that combo, whatever we wanna do. No allowed options besides the approved options can be picked. You can obviously go stock vs using an option. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, red0 said:

 

The rule was supposed to be something like this:

Carb tuning / distributor advancing: 0 points

Chipped OE ecu = 0 points

Reflashed OE ecu = 0 points

 

Then people were like: 

"My SUX6000 has a maxi-crap ECU that is un-tunable, give me a free megasquirt". 

 

What Chumpcar should have said was: "We didn't pick your car". 

 

What they should have done is put a cost limit on ECUs, such to allow homebrew solutions like the megasquirt but to disallow pro-level hardware like haltechs and such, if that is your opinion.

 

 

Having an un-supported or un-tunable ECU can make or break a chassis' feasibility as a champcar.  If we want to support more makes/models being competitive, the "we didn't pick your car" answer is a terrible line of reasoning.

 

Minimal issue for honda OBD1, plenty of mods available.  OBD2 can mostly convert back to OBD1 with an OTS adapter harness and reap the same benefits.

No issue for BMW, E30, E36, E46 all infinitely adjustable (costs vary)

No issue for GM stuff. A bit expensive, but awesome software and awesome support.

 

BIG issue for "rare" or not-supported stuff.  Mercedes?  Audi?  Toyota/Lexus? 

 

 

 

I run the factory ECU in my "swap" car.  It actually has MORE capability than a MS3Pro, with better community support related to tuning at this point.  

 

 

 

 

Unless champ has the capability of reading chip "dumps" on every car racing, or issuing "sealed" ECU's, flashed or modified computers WERE and ARE a fact of life.  its SO easy to flash a chip and put it into a stock ECU board.  A flashed chip looks physically identical to a OE chip. 

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Ecu thing will be a hard to contain.

 

Huggy said it best, one team i help literally cannot run their car on a stock pcm without it going limp mode... Even as a stock engine.

 

The big dollar ecus have better safety and controls, however the best running cars in my fleet of racers is a stock and reflashed stock (open source tuned) pcm....

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I was always on board with open up the ecus due to us being stuck with a crappy obd1 that had very little options and just wanted to do a DIY Megasquirt like was run on our autocross cars.  Never was I in the camp of letting in the AEM, Motec, Haltech, etc ECUS.  Similar to how we tell teams so sad that your adjustable shocks fall into the 2x rule, they are adjustable and outside the intent of the rule.....maybe it should have and needs to be done in this way?

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10 hours ago, red0 said:

 

The team with the most wins:

chuck.jpg 

Ok, yea, that may be true, but that’s because of great execution, great strategy, and great driving. 

 

We we are supposed to be bitching about the rules to make up for our shortcomings, let’s get back to that...

  • Haha 3

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6 hours ago, Chris Shay said:

Ok, yea, that may be true, but that’s because of great execution, great strategy, and great driving. 

 

We we are supposed to be bitching about the rules to make up for our shortcomings, let’s get back to that...

Yea.  It’s a shock that a thread turns into bitching.      I do think there have been some healthy ideas shared, mixed in with some not so healthy ones.   And everyone has a little different idea which is which. 

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19 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Just curious, what does it take to build a stock, competitive,  SCCA  engine?

 

This is still a builders series but podiums cost no matter the rule set.

Scca engine would cost much less than an all out champcar engine because you are limited with the amout of porting you can do in SCCA. Also many classes require stock cams.

Edited by morganf

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1 hour ago, morganf said:

Scca engine would cost much less than an all out champcar engine because you are limited with the amout of porting you can do in SCCA. Also many classes require stock cams.

That and the Scca has no problem tearing down engines they suspect of cheating.

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6 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

That and the Scca has no problem tearing down engines they suspect of cheating.

 

Don't forget the diversity in types of engines torn down, and money available for tech enforcement is at least one order of magnitude off....

 

This is for stuff beyond the basics you can currently protest, non stock cam (with measureable lift change), unclaimed manifolds, etc. 

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4 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Don't forget the diversity in types of engines torn down, and money available for tech enforcement is at least one order of magnitude off....

 

This is for stuff beyond the basics you can currently protest, non stock cam (with measureable lift change), unclaimed manifolds, etc. 

Can you call [divide by zero] an order of magnitude?

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4 minutes ago, morganf said:

Can you call [divide by zero] an order of magnitude?

 

I have personally seen the tops of more engine types opened up at a CC race than spec miata (only 2 engine families in SM makes this easy).

 

Torn down past valve cover, nope. But i would be willing to bet more engine families show up to the 2018 vir 24hr than scca had to deal with in a year....

 

A conversation for a few beers at track, but a large percentage of the things people could measure at track with the resources we have available would be easily defeated with fairly common knowledge (at least of good racing engine guys). If we commit to complete teardowns you will still be faced with the issue of measuring accuracy. At the pro level this is why the motor teardowns in Nascar happen at Nascar, not the track. Thinking of just cam duration, how would you easily measure that on cars with hydraulic lifters with lots of bleed down (wink wink). It ends up beyond the capabilities of a dial indicator and set of calipers.

 

You could limit the gap between the great builders and the average Joe's with this method, but in a spec miata way where in the end the money still wins and the robbers have it easier than the cops.

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Our team is now a two person concern, my partner is far more competitive and frankly a better driver and his level of frustration is palpable.

 

WGI was ludicrous from a speed perspective.  We had the 60th fastest lap at 2:25....

 

60th fastest ..... 

 

How much of this is driving skill?  I'd say 25% in our case.

 

Car prep?  It's basically stock, junkyard M50, off the shelf chipped, with some weight reduction.

 

11 seconds a lap separated us and the front of the field.  It's pretty clear what is going on here.... but you won't see us spending thousands of cubic dollars to make us faster as I don't believe it will help us much.  

 

We will simply adjust our conversations to what and where we might be more than a back marker attending...... we certainly will look at WGI in a different light going forward.

 

We finished 24th on Sunday BTW.... attrition, consistency, execution... helped.

Edited by dogtired
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On 6/11/2019 at 5:24 PM, Jer said:

You would be better off limiting prep or keeping points to a limit.  We are not ever going to do PTW as a classification.  There's another series that does that.  

 

We are running with that other series next month.   After reading their rules many times in preparation for that race I think there are some thing this series could learn and benefit from.   Are they perfect, no.   Are they better than what we have, IMO yes.    Why? Less gray areas and everyone is playing by the same rules. 

Edited by Snake

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