Class awards

[frankrehnelt]

Can we talk about why teams double dip on awards now?  If you get an overall award why do you get a class award (every other racing I’m involved with does not do this, you can’t win a 30-35 age group award at your local 10k if you collected a 2nd overall). I thought the class awards were to recognize “lesser” or “disadvantaged” cars. 

[Gkuhn41]

Car Racing VS Running, two different sports. If i run a class A car and i finish 6th, and a class A car finishes 2nd over all. I dont want the Class A "WIN" because i didnt WIN class A.

 

Look at it as: 

1.Overall Podium

2.Class Winners

 

2 separate races being ran at the same time.

 

If we start handing out class wins to second place were down the road of, "I want a participation trophy too."

 

Just my opinion.

[JDChristianson]

I think, and maybe its just me, but this is what I think/have observed.

 

Despite some peoples absolute dislike of the classes, they mean more to a lot of people.  Conversations up and down pit lane often include something like "not bad, we are 12th overall and second in class.   We can catch them for the class win"   People pay attention to classes and are proud of class wins.

 

Despite the BOD's stance that "We are about single class racing and classes don't mean hooey", the organization went out and sold class sponsorship's.   It would probably not be good to not give out the trophies and not mention the sponsors at the awards presentation.  

 

Seems like a bit of a state of denial that some folks talk like the classes don't matter.     

 

It can work both ways,  with the overall win being the big deal and the classes are secondary.   

 

Now the validity of the current classes is another discussion all together.

 

[Black Magic]

11 hours ago, frankrehnelt said:

Can we talk about why teams double dip on awards now?  If you get an overall award why do you get a class award (every other racing I’m involved with does not do this, you can’t win a 30-35 age group award at your local 10k if you collected a 2nd overall). I thought the class awards were to recognize “lesser” or “disadvantaged” cars. 

 

I hadn't picked up on that, because the cars I drive are usually class B. Totally see your point. 

 

The class wins mean more to the A,B,D class cars, which are often the harder platforms to campaign well. Since the class winner in A,B,D are often not on the podium, many of us assumed the class awards were for non podium cars. 

 

Should we just not hand out the class award if you podium? Skip it all together and save a little $? 

[frankrehnelt]

As it’s structured now if you win a race you get two trophies guaranteed. That seems strange to me. My own teammates and crew still bring up what position we are in class and all I’m interested in is how we are doing overall. I don’t understand  if you finish in the top three why you would even want a class trophy. 

[zack_280]

It makes sense to me to just get one or the other.  If you get an overall trophy, CCWS should just keep the class trophy and give you the overall trophy.  

[Scribe]

That was changed this year. All previous years that I've been racing in Champ in the East region they would just glue a class ABCD winner plaque to the overall podium trophy.  I think in either the west or central they were handing out class trophies in addition to overall and some teams asked if they could do that everywhere, so they did.

 

I really don't see what the problem is here.

[chip]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

I really don't see what the problem is here.

Exactly- if you win your class, then you get a trophy-

If you podium, then you get a trophy

If you win your class and podium, then you get two trophy's 

seems simple enough to understand...but I guess some people want participation trophy's too

[frankrehnelt]

30 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

It makes sense to me to just get one or the other.  If you get an overall trophy, CCWS should just keep the class trophy and give you the overall trophy.  

 

I like this idea. I’m not a participation trophy kind of guy. I think finishers medals should be banned. I thought Champcar was single class racing and we all fight for the overall. The classes are secondary and a way to bring in more participants. In my Adventure racing day we race coed because that was considered the premier division (always had a bad ass girl) and some all male teams would sometimes beat us but all we cared about was the overall and getting enough point to make nationals or worlds. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by frankrehnelt

[wvumtnbkr]

17 minutes ago, Scribe said:

That was changed this year. All previous years that I've been racing in Champ in the East region they would just glue a class ABCD winner plaque to the overall podium trophy.  I think in either the west or central they were handing out class trophies in addition to overall and some teams asked if they could do that everywhere, so they did.

 

I really don't see what the problem is here.

We won limerock a few years ago at the first time champcar ran there.  We did not get the class win.  The next year, we won again and did get the class win.

 

This changed about 3 or 4 years ago to giving the podium teams the class trophy from my experience.  (As proven by our podium and class win trophies over the last 3 years)

[wvumtnbkr]

The class trophies and winning your class is a consolation prize for not being on the podium.

 

I am fine with giving the non podium finisher the class prize.

[Jab31169]

Yea, I mean if you win your class and win the overall why wouldn't you get both?  Seems pretty straight forward to me.

[frankrehnelt]

Yea, if you get an overall trophy why would you even want a class trophy? Seems pretty straight forward to me. 

[BollingerChump]

2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

I think, and maybe its just me, but this is what I think/have observed.

 

Despite some peoples absolute dislike of the classes, they mean more to a lot of people.  Conversations up and down pit lane often include something like "not bad, we are 12th overall and second in class.   We can catch them for the class win"   People pay attention to classes and are proud of class wins.

 

Despite the BOD's stance that "We are about single class racing and classes don't mean hooey", the organization went out and sold class sponsorship's.   It would probably not be good to not give out the trophies and not mention the sponsors at the awards presentation.  

 

Seems like a bit of a state of denial that some folks talk like the classes don't matter.     

 

It can work both ways,  with the overall win being the big deal and the classes are secondary.   

 

Now the validity of the current classes is another discussion all together.

 

 

Brings up a good point I've never understood.  CCES stance is that there is no class racing, but a huge chunk of participants I overhear/interact with always discuss class standings along with overall standings.  Would make sense to just openly embrace the fact there are different classes.  Might even be able to sell sponsors/better sponsors on class trophies/prizes if your class winners aren't officially disowned by the sanctioning body...

Edited June 19, 2019 by BollingerChump

[frankrehnelt]

52 minutes ago, chip said:

...but I guess some people want participation trophy's too

 

To me, the class awards are  the participation trophies because Champcar is a single class series. 

[Jab31169]

I don't understand the perceived hate towards class racing IMO.  Its a way for teams that aren't running up front to feel involved in a race.  And for all the talk about all the cannon fodder that shows up to every race, how do you keep them motivated when they know its impossible to compete with the top tier teams.  

 

Pretty simple IMO, you have your overall winner, overall podium, and your class winners.  It ain't rocket math, neither takes away any glory from the other.  Why is this a problem for some...i dunno

[Andrew D Johnson]

3 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

I don't understand the perceived hate towards class racing IMO.  Its a way for teams that aren't running up front to feel involved in a race.  And for all the talk about all the cannon fodder that shows up to every race, how do you keep them motivated when they know its impossible to compete with the top tier teams.  

 

Pretty simple IMO, you have your overall winner, overall podium, and your class winners.  It ain't rocket math, neither takes away any glory from the other.  Why is this a problem for some...i dunno

 

I was against the participation classes for a long time. They don't make sense. They were designed for sprint racing so that the fuel restricted D class cars would not wipe the floor with the small displacement cars since the VPIs were designed to create parity for endurance racing and not sprint racing. 

After talking to many teams, the arbitrary participation classes make the racing more enjoyable for quite a few teams. If they are making the racing more enjoyable for a good portion of teams and do not take anything away from the overall podium, that's great.  

 

I don't think there is a problem to fix regarding the current structure. 

[enginerd]

54 minutes ago, frankrehnelt said:

Yea, if you get an overall trophy why would you even want a class trophy? Seems pretty straight forward to me. 

Why would you accept the class trophy if you weren’t actually the best in your class?

[frankrehnelt]

 

18 minutes ago, Jab31169 said:

I don't understand the perceived hate towards class racing IMO.  Its a way for teams that aren't running up front to feel involved in a race.  And for all the talk about all the cannon fodder that shows up to every race, how do you keep them motivated when they know its impossible to compete with the top tier teams.  

 

I think you add to my argument. Go further and give them a chance to win one of the cool bowling trophy by taking out the overalls. 

[frankrehnelt]

10 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Why would you accept the class trophy if you weren’t actually the best in your class?

I wouldn’t keep it. I’m not racing for class. I’m racing for the overall. I gave away all the trophies we’ve ever got for overall and I wouldn’t stop if we ever got a class trophy. One is sitting at the machine shop. One is at an old sponsors office and the two others I gave to my renters. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by frankrehnelt

[Richard]

It seems to me like most people don't understand why classes were created 100 years ago and why they are still around today. In general terms, the technical rules would be the same for every class but when everything is equal horsepower reigns so cars were divided in to classes separated by displacement and weight. You still see this in the SCCA with classes like C Sedan and C Production where saloon cars and open top cars are separated even further.

 Now, instead of running 20 single races of varying group sizes they would place all cars of similar capabilities in to one race so that the day ended on time and everyone got as much track time as possible. Saturday and Sunday morning practice would be divided in to two groups, Open Wheel and Closed Wheel, so that everyone could shake down their cars before their respective races. 

 

ChampCar was always a one class series with huge fields and the rules did what the could to even out all the different cars and was very successful at this. Like Andrew said, the classes were initially implemented for the short lived sprint series and simply never taken away. Add to this the new rules where there are more open components and the disparity between displacement becomes greater and much more obvious.

 

I am not a big fan of the classes but it is a pretty decent achievement to run in the top 10 with a 1.6L Honda and also best 25+ A class cars in much the same way as besting C class and finishing first Overall. 

I'll take my A class win in these 100 car fields any day of the week but if I ever have the chance to win overall I will only accept the one trophy.

 

 I know Krispy Kreme sponsored A class at The Glen and we're still waiting for our free dozen!

[frankrehnelt]

Champcar rules are set up to make an A B D class cars as competitive as a C class car for the overall (we can argue somewhere else how effective they are but that’s the goal). 

Edited June 19, 2019 by frankrehnelt

[enginerd]

11 minutes ago, Richard said:

It seems to me like most people don't understand why classes were created 100 years ago and why they are still around today. In general terms, the technical rules would be the same for every class but when everything is equal horsepower reigns so cars were divided in to classes separated by displacement and weight. You still see this in the SCCA with classes like C Sedan and C Production where saloon cars and open top cars are separated even further.

 Now, instead of running 20 single races of varying group sizes they would place all cars of similar capabilities in to one race so that the day ended on time and everyone got as much track time as possible. Saturday and Sunday morning practice would be divided in to two groups, Open Wheel and Closed Wheel, so that everyone could shake down their cars before their respective races. 

 

ChampCar was always a one class series with huge fields and the rules did what the could to even out all the different cars and was very successful at this. Like Andrew said, the classes were initially implemented for the short lived sprint series and simply never taken away. Add to this the new rules where there are more open components and the disparity between displacement becomes greater and much more obvious.

 

I am not a big fan of the classes but it is a pretty decent achievement to run in the top 10 with a 1.6L Honda and also best 25+ A class cars in much the same way as besting C class and finishing first Overall. 

I'll take my A class win in these 100 car fields any day of the week but if I ever have the chance to win overall I will only accept the one trophy.

 

 I know Krispy Kreme sponsored A class at The Glen and we're still waiting for our free dozen!

[greenfont] Yup, that’s why the D class cars always top the podium [/greenfont]

 

Also, your line that says “when everything else is equal, horsepower reigns supreme” is valid, but doesn’t apply to ChampCar, because almost nothing is equal. The points structure and starting performance of the cars makes it so there is a huge range in power / handling / aero / etc. If your car is good in one area, it’s probably bad in another, or marginal in several. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by enginerd

[Richard]

 I appreciate sarcasm at all times but we all know that if there were D class cars prepped with the same diligence, effort and budget that both the C and A class cars are prepped to that they would be topping the time charts and podium consistently. We simply don't see enough D class cars.

 

Imagine a few teams of ex Roush/Saleen Mustangs coupled with the Camaro/Firebirds added to the Escort Corvettes, in ChampCar. D class would dominate.

[ETR]

So much worry about things that have no affect on your own race or your results.  This is why we can’t have nice things.  What do I care what’s important to another racer and what he or she calls it?

 

“Hey you over there pleased with your results, wipe that smile off your face!!!”