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27 minutes ago, enginerd said:

What extra stop? CRXs get 45+mph :)

Hey, with all the mods this one probably gets 38+mph....

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Richard    1,059

  • Richard
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 I appreciate sarcasm at all times but we all know that if there were D class cars prepped with the same diligence, effort and budget that both the C and A class cars are prepped to that they would be topping the time charts and podium consistently. We simply don't see enough D class cars.

 

Imagine a few teams of ex Roush/Saleen Mustangs coupled with the Camaro/Firebirds added to the Escort Corvettes, in ChampCar. D class would dominate.

 

10 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Prior to the petition review this year I posted results showing the correlation between fuel capacity per weight and wins out east. I would suspect it is possible with a D class car, but with fewer (aka the old ones) D class cars that meet that criteria the likelihood is lower. 

 

When we thought a D class car could be built to do this, the T bird VPI was raised to match. The fear of giving a newer D class car an equal fuel to weight as the popular c class cars makes the choice very hard and I think those teams would just choose a more sensible path. Only a few of us are smart enough to make a decent attempt but dumb enough to try a terrible idea :)

 

@Richard you easterners used to say BMW types were just better drivers, now not only are you apparently better drivers but also better mechanics too?  Why was the east faster?  Well when you don't take points for anything:

 

West: we claim brake ducts at 10 points.  East: we need those so they are free.

West: we claim swapping from mechanical to electric fan at 10 points.  East: it does the same thing so it is free.

West: we claim a power steering cooler at 20 points.  East: 20 points is just for engine/trans/diff coolers, our power steering cooler is free.

West: we claim a chipped ECU at 75 points.  East: it was in the computer when we got it and the stock tune is so good it doesn't really do anything so it is free.

West: we claim the oil cooler at 20 points even though it is a repurposed AC cooler because it is being used as an oil cooler.  East: that is just repurposed so ours is free.

West: we claim...

Thankfully I think those discrepancies have been cleared up, unfortunately I think all of it has been made free because the east "needed it".  For a current argument for the next free item see the splitter/air dam discussion.

 

Then when a D class car shows up to challenge for the podium the east says it is a cheater because they are not claiming everything despite that being the way of the east, see the 400SX.  Yes many said it was a cheater but it passed tech and tech said in black and white it was legit.

 

@Black Magic you probably shouldn't say "we" like everybody on the board agreed.  It took over a flipping month to figure out how much it should be penalized despite no recent wins since multiple major rule changes, that doesn't sound very unanimous or even reasonable to some.  It was double dipped because others were afraid it might challenge for a podium spot.  Slanting the rules keeps potential customers away - for evidence see the entries for Utah.  In the May Lucky Dog Utah race there were 7 Mustangs but not one of them have entered the July ChampCar race yet, that is a funny coincidence or maybe they will all show up last minute proving me wrong.  However the smart business decision is to slant things for the popular choice so they can win and claim they are better drivers and better mechanics and I don't blame ChampCar for that, even though I hate double dipping the rules.

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11 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

I though you guys were in first for the first 10 laps or so, but was curious if you think you were 5 or 10 mins faster than the field to make up the extra stop or two....

 

Forgot to mention, i do respect the speed of your car. I think over the internet questioning can sound like direct critique. 

 

After the 2016 rules changes the fuel game changed in a big way, and the class thing i think took hold

 

We were not 5-10 min faster, but I'm not sure we needed to be. Most of the strategy came down to if you knew your opponents were going to have their pit laps added on during the late red flag. Some cars did not have their pit laps counted during the race. Then during a red flag with a few hours to go, T&S added them in by hand. If you thought you had a lead and were being conservative only to find out you were 2 laps behind, you were screwed! I don't know how that would have played out for the CRX. 

I don't mind critique, especially from someone obviously more knowledgeable than I am. 

 

We won Road Atlanta in 2017, and Gman and Pitt with the A class CRX. I still don't think that A or B class cars are at a disadvantage. 

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47 minutes ago, red0 said:

I still don't think that A or B class cars are at a disadvantage. 

As a car owner and racer I agree.  My B class Miata is quite capable of winning the overall, we just haven't put it all together yet.  Hopefully next race.  We were in 3rd at Road America on day one when the clutch line failed, and for a moment in the lead on day two and then passed to 2nd by a D class car before the clutch itself failed.  We temporarily led at Nelson Ledges when the diff let go.  we were in 2nd at laguna when the alternator failed. I believe my car can win at many tracks if it can just finish a damned race. 

 

My personal opinion is class trophies hurt nothing.  We could argue a better way to delineate classes, but no one gets hurt.  Personally I want the overall and that's what I race for.  But when things aren't going well, at least there's something to look at (classes).  

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I take umbrage at being included with the 'Easterners' who used to say BMW drivers are better. I've raced against more than enough BMW's to know that they are far from that!

 

I'm also one who wants every single non-OEM part as a Value Add with appropriate points.

 

I was charged more points for a two foot piece of ducting pointing in the general direction of the distributor than teams with free transmission adapters, free headers, free JDM swaps because the swap "won't work without them".

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I feel like we keep getting these threads but nothing new for information.   I think the current system works well because everyone has a shot at the win.  the classes don't differentiate performance, they group similar cars together. the civics can fight other small motors, the bmws same, the muscle cars also.   If you're left with no real shot at the win, going for class win is a second shot and gives you something to race for which is a lot more fun than just running laps DE style.  Really it would almost be as good if you just divided field randomly into four classes, except that racing similar cars is a bit more fun.

 

when other series are bringing more cars to same tracks you can come back and tell us it's broken.  (excluding lemons which is something else)

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If you guys have ideas on how better to structure classes, please write petitions.  We've considered a good one two years ago, but there just wasn't enough pro change to make a change.  Maybe now there is, not sure.  We'd love to hear from you, put the petitions out for member feedback, and see what happens.  

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1 hour ago, theblue said:

I feel like we keep getting these threads but nothing new for information.   I think the current system works well because everyone has a shot at the win.  the classes don't differentiate performance, they group similar cars together. the civics can fight other small motors, the bmws same, the muscle cars also.   If you're left with no real shot at the win, going for class win is a second shot and gives you something to race for which is a lot more fun than just running laps DE style.  Really it would almost be as good if you just divided field randomly into four classes, except that racing similar cars is a bit more fun.

 

when other series are bringing more cars to same tracks you can come back and tell us it's broken.  (excluding lemons which is something else)

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. 

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Could someone with easy access to race results data (can harvest from Speedhive, but only one race at a time - painful when

I have to be working on my race car), could you please post - say over all Champ races in 2017 and 18, which class won

overall at each every race, and the year/make/model of every class winner at every race?

 

Maybe I will go try to dig out this data...

 

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11 hours ago, red0 said:


I don't mind critique, especially from someone obviously more knowledgeable than I am.

 

Many days i am convinced the knowledge just makes me really wrong when i have a bad idea.....

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32 minutes ago, Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com said:

Could someone with easy access to race results data (can harvest from Speedhive, but only one race at a time - painful when

I have to be working on my race car), could you please post - say over all Champ races in 2017 and 18, which class won

overall at each every race, and the year/make/model of every class winner at every race?

 

Maybe I will go try to dig out this data...

 

Another interesting piece of the puzzle (that is not available) would be the point value the podium cars are at.   

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Okay, I only used what I could find on RaceHero - cus Speedhive doesn’t list class in the overall standings.

And RaceHero is missing about half the races.  So all that being said...

 

48 total races with RaceHero results from Jan 2017 to present (Jun 2019)

C won overall 24 times, 50% - nearly all BMWs.  VPI for most BMWs is around 400, so not a lot of room to mod and stay within rules.

A won overall 10 times, 21% - nearly all Miatas.  VPI is 250 or 300 for 90s models, so more room to mod and still stay under 500.

EC won overall 6 times, 13% - (I know, EC doesn’t count, but they show up in results so I recorded them) different makes.

B won overall 4 times, 8% - different makes

D won overall 4 times, 8% - different makes

 

No one tells us what car to build. Full disclosure, I race a B class car.  But if we want everyone with close to the same skills and

experience to have a shot at the overall win (I said “if”, maybe not everyone agrees), I have already petitioned a VPI change:

     Leave BMW and Miata right where they are - they are doing just fine - those teams don’t have to change anything.

     But reduce the VPI of every other car in the list by (I proposed) 75 points.  See if that allows a bit more B and D wins.

It will never be totally even, but it’s clear that C, for sure, and A, somewhat - are gapping the field.

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16 minutes ago, Rick.Cook23@yahoo.com said:

Okay, I only used what I could find on RaceHero - cus Speedhive doesn’t list class in the overall standings.

And RaceHero is missing about half the races.  So all that being said...

 

48 total races with RaceHero results from Jan 2017 to present (Jun 2019)

C won overall 24 times, 50% - nearly all BMWs.  VPI for most BMWs is around 400, so not a lot of room to mod and stay within rules.

A won overall 10 times, 21% - nearly all Miatas.  VPI is 250 or 300 for 90s models, so more room to mod and still stay under 500.

EC won overall 6 times, 13% - (I know, EC doesn’t count, but they show up in results so I recorded them) different makes.

B won overall 4 times, 8% - different makes

D won overall 4 times, 8% - different makes

 

No one tells us what car to build. Full disclosure, I race a B class car.  But if we want everyone with close to the same skills and

experience to have a shot at the overall win (I said “if”, maybe not everyone agrees), I have already petitioned a VPI change:

     Leave BMW and Miata right where they are - they are doing just fine - those teams don’t have to change anything.

     But reduce the VPI of every other car in the list by (I proposed) 75 points.  See if that allows a bit more B and D wins.

It will never be totally even, but it’s clear that C, for sure, and A, somewhat - are gapping the field.

Can you post the % of the field that falls into A, B, C, D?? I think you’ll find 50% to be C class, so wouldn’t it make sense for them to win 50% of races?

Also, your proposal to drop all non miata/BMW by 75 points is hilarious and (among other things) doesn’t reflect the non-linearity of the points-benefit ratio and penalty laps. 

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people who really want to win often do two things:

1) pick A for lightweight cars (often) or C for power and weight

2) put in a lot more effort and bring a lot of experience (and sometimes cash)

 

You also have to consider that sometimes a single dominant team will skew these stats a lot with a run of wins.   think about the big rusty cougar with the big V8 and massive tank that used to run and win a lot.  B suffers from just not having great car selections that fall into it, D suffers from being heavy and needing lots of fuel.

 

champcar has already brought down values on things like camaros and mustangs and people for the most part still want none of that.

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14 hours ago, theblue said:

people who really want to win often do two things:

1) pick A for lightweight cars (often) or C for power and weight

2) put in a lot more effort and bring a lot of experience (and sometimes cash)

 

You also have to consider that sometimes a single dominant team will skew these stats a lot with a run of wins.   think about the big rusty cougar with the big V8 and massive tank that used to run and win a lot.  B suffers from just not having great car selections that fall into it, D suffers from being heavy and needing lots of fuel.

 

champcar has already brought down values on things like camaros and mustangs and people for the most part still want none of that.

 

Let's not start rumours.

 

The rusty Cougar was winning under a completely different rule set, there have been I think six major rules revisions since then - swaps going to value based, swap formula for points per hp, around 100 cars VPI lowered, a bunch of free stuff that used to be points, around another 100 cars VPI lowered again, more free stuff that used to be points, etc.  It has not raced nor won since or through all of the revisions.  It was not one of the cars that had its VPI adjusted down, more recently it was adjusted up 100 points which was then revised to up 50 points.

 

Mustangs were never lowered, the plan was to raise them all while lowering around 100 other cars, also known as double dipping. 

 

I don't think Camaros have ever been changed except to match sister cars like Chev and Pontiac.

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Yes, never mind. Not sure how this got turned around to a discussion on changing the classes or people not running for a class award. My thoughts/proposals were on how awards are distributed. If you think it’s stupid look at any other amateur  racing and you will find the top (being winner, top three or top ten) is taken out for the premier awards and do no receive secondary awards and the fact that the rules are designed to try and equal the classes (a guy in the 40-44 age group is not allowed to start a race earlier) I feel strengthens my argument overalls should be removed from class awards. 

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My wife just won a triathlon (well she was seventh overall, they do separate the men and women still......for now). When she signed up she was put in the 40-44 age group. When she crossed the finish line first she beat all the other older and younger (in theory should be faster) females. They gave her the overall award but she also should have received the masters first place and the 40-44 first place age group award if this race was set up like we currently distribute awards in Champcar. She only received the overall. 

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5 hours ago, frankrehnelt said:

My wife just won a triathlon (well she was seventh overall, they do separate the men and women still......for now). When she signed up she was put in the 40-44 age group. When she crossed the finish line first she beat all the other older and younger (in theory should be faster) females. They gave her the overall award but she also should have received the masters first place and the 40-44 first place age group award if this race was set up like we currently distribute awards in Champcar. She only received the overall. 

 

So do you feel that she really didn't win her age group as well?  Was she not the fastest 40-44yo female?     

Giving out a 1st place award to an A, B, C, D class car that didn't come in first place in their class makes no sense to me.    Wouldn't that be similar as trying to explain why we have to pull EC cars out of the results and justify your OA position?    Wanna confuse people even more? 

 

John - We came in 1st place in A class!  

Bob - What about the Miata that won the race? 

John - They don't count since they won.

Bob - uhhh what?

John - They don't count because they won

Bob - But they beat everyone

John - We won our class 

Bob - Ok.....

 

 

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She was the fastest 40-44. She was the fastest master. She was the fastest female. She was also faster than the male 40-44. All awards she would get if they did it like Champcar. They take the overalls out of the lesser awards. I’m proposing to change awards distribution to be more effective. 

 

John. Why is he getting a class win he just got an overall

Bob. He was the fastest C class

John. I thought Champcar was all about overall and class was a fun distraction. 

Bob. But then some guy that wasn’t.  the fastest C would get it. 

John. But the overall is the most  sought after and why would the winner even want a consolation prize. 

Bob. Because he deserves it

John. Sounds like he need over affirmation and need to see a doctor. 

 

I’m just proposing a way to better utilize the awards. We can go on for ever who deserves what but the class awards were implemented to give something to teams that are not at the tip top. 

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On 6/23/2019 at 7:29 AM, frankrehnelt said:

My wife just won a triathlon (well she was seventh overall, they do separate the men and women still......for now). When she signed up she was put in the 40-44 age group. When she crossed the finish line first she beat all the other older and younger (in theory should be faster) females. They gave her the overall award but she also should have received the masters first place and the 40-44 first place age group award if this race was set up like we currently distribute awards in Champcar. She only received the overall. 

 

Maybe this is a sort of unwritten rule we can get the top teams to agree to....if you win your class and podium accept it for the pic at awards but give the hardware back to mike so the club can save some $. Take home just one trophy....the biggest.

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18 hours ago, Snake said:

John - We came in 1st place in A class!  

Bob - What about the Miata that won the race? 

John - They don't count since they won.

Bob - that makes sense because champcar is beer league car racing, not IMSA

 

fixed

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On 6/23/2019 at 7:29 AM, frankrehnelt said:

My wife just won a triathlon (well she was seventh overall, they do separate the men and women still......for now). When she signed up she was put in the 40-44 age group. When she crossed the finish line first she beat all the other older and younger (in theory should be faster) females. They gave her the overall award but she also should have received the masters first place and the 40-44 first place age group award if this race was set up like we currently distribute awards in Champcar. She only received the overall. 

 

I used coach cross country and track in college and had a lot of athletes win road races after college.  I'm very familiar with the scenario you've described.  I never really liked it much.  I feel it was always confusing.  If I had 3 women in the 20-29 age group go 1-2-3 in a 5k race, then they get the overall 1-2-3 awards.  However, the 4th place girl in that age group is the 20-29 age group winner?  How does that make since at all?  That girl could have been 200th overall and still won her age group, just because she had the top 3 overall in her age group.  

 

The way ChampCar does it makes way more logical sense.  Award those who do well, even if they take home multiple awards.  This isn't a participation league.

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Champcar writes the rules to make the class awards the participation trophy. All classes have the same chance at winning overall (separate argument on how effective they are). Everyone races for the overall. If the 5k let the 50-55 age group start 2 minutes early it would be like Champcar. If A class was designed to be slower than D okay. It’s not. They may not want to say the class trophies are participation trophies but they can’t call Champcar a single class series if first place get an overall award and a class award. The class trophies are a bone to teams that aren’t quite there and a really cool bowling trophy is their reward for almost there (participation trophy) and would mean much more to them than the first place guy collecting his second but secondary award. Trophies work. Participation awards work. Race decals work. Race T-shirt’s work. They get people and participants excited and keeps them coming back. We need to utilize them more effectively. Take out the top three overalls and roll the class awards down. 

Edited by frankrehnelt

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Or just increase the number of overall awards, say top five and not give class awards. It won’t be long until the 626 that finished out of the top ten won’t be seeing that first in B class trophy. Or the fuel starved fragile Camero was the sole survivor in 25th but still managed a D class trophy. The Eco tech Miatas and the well built/run Mustangs will make all the hardware go to the top five anyway soon enough. It won’t be a BMW Miata and Civic exclusive club. I personally like seeing the occasional team that squeaked in for a secondary award after a tough day but that’s just me. I’d like to see more. They seem so much happier about it. 

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