Jump to content
turbogrill

Points for aftermarket / othercar hubs?

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

 No dog in this fight, but hubs aren’t what I would call a suspension component...

You are correct.  Possibly even more important since they are unsprung rotating mass.   Should probably be more  than a suspension component.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

You are correct.  Possibly even more important since they are unsprung rotating mass.   Should probably be more  than a suspension component.  

As much as brakes discs, adapters, and wheels?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, morganf said:

As much as brakes discs, adapters, and wheels?

 

No one said the points for that stuff is correct either. 😁.   

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, National Tech said:

Hubs are 2.5 points per corner.

 

7 hours ago, morganf said:

Has this been run by Mike/board? Would love to know if this is really official before we start buying stuff.

@National Tech please show us what part of the BCCR shows a 2.5 point value for anything. 

or did this become a 'rule' because you're friends with the Miatahub.com builder?

Most of us have been claiming 10 points for aftermarket hubs for many years now.  TAC was unsuccessful at getting this put in the 2019 BCCR. 

The Miatahub.com guy tried to get me to write a petition for free hubs, but approached me a day after the petition deadline. If hubs are truly 2.5 points, then I guess he has more pull or influence than a TAC member. 

Edited by mcoppola
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

Is a 4 lug to 5 lug conversion 10 points?

 

Serious question

Aftermarket hubs are 2.5 pts why question the gray area that is the chumpcar rule book.

P.s. I also posed this question a few posts back. :)

Edited by morganf
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This one, along with a few others makes me think of that quote from Jurassic Park: " Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."  

I'd be curious to see what would happen if there were 10-15 petitions next year asking for point increases on things like this?  I would guess nothing because this series feels like it cannot make anyone unhappy or raise values, unless you run a minority make(MR2 withstanding).  Kind of how when Alabama gets caught cheating in football, Cleveland State ends up losing scholarships!😜

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, morganf said:

Has this been run by Mike/board? Would love to know if this is really official before we start buying stuff.

Yes, it has been approved by myself and Mike.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2.5 points per hub???  This smells bad.....  I would think the "smart and consistent" thing to do would be using the 2x cost rule, then 10 points for "other suspension component", unless of course your ox is getting gored and you have an in.  Yes, such a rule would benefit me on a current build, but if this proves to be correct (2.5 pts!), it will just push my look into other series even further.  Champcar is beginning to look more and more like the SCCA!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

This one, along with a few others makes me think of that quote from Jurassic Park: " Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."  

I'd be curious to see what would happen if there were 10-15 petitions next year asking for point increases on things like this?  I would guess nothing because this series feels like it cannot make anyone unhappy or raise values, unless you run a minority make(MR2 withstanding).  Kind of how when Alabama gets caught cheating in football, Cleveland State ends up losing scholarships!😜

 

It seems that some of those in charge are so focused on not pushing people away by increasing point values or VPIs to reign in speed creep, that they're missing all the people they're pushing away by not doing so.

 

I guess tunnel vision and target fixation aren't just for race drivers.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/6/2019 at 9:32 AM, National Tech said:

Most people  "re-drill" their hubs for zero points.

So my rear hubs are now 5 points instead of 20, and my redrilled fronts are now free. Another 35 point reduction.

 

My 499 point car in 2015 is now 276 points and soon will be free! 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/7/2019 at 9:18 AM, SonsOfIrony said:

 

It seems that some of those in charge are so focused on not pushing people away by increasing point values or VPIs to reign in speed creep, that they're missing all the people they're pushing away by not doing so.

 

I guess tunnel vision and target fixation aren't just for race drivers.

Assigning points for hubs was discussed thoroughly over a four month period by Tech and Mike and as many drivers as I could talk to at race events. TAC has chimed in as well.  The discussions started after multiple bearing failures and unfortunate early withdrawals by our members. When a few tires rolled down a hot track we were full steam ahead. We were Feeling lucky no one was hurt, but not lucky enough to continue to ignore an obvious safety issue.

 

Teams that were using non OEM bearings were not having problems except that they were not claiming points, which is a different problem.  Teams that were not using them thought they were illegal but were also not interested in eliminating the safety problem once the were I formed that they could be used at the cost of 40 points.  We are all racers so we can't judge the logic.

 

Honestly I received No negative responses to a 2.5 point penalty outside of the ones voiced here on the forum and ofcourse after the fact.

 

2020 is a new year,  so I am interested in your comments. 

 

Specifically the 2x rule thought.  Do I understand that you feel if they are less than the 2x the value of OEM then you are good with them being zero points. But 2.5 is too low?  If they are over 2x how many points per hub. How do you feel about the safety aspects.  Seem we need to start matching the bearing strength to the heavier loads the fat tires and cheap home made aero are bringing to us. I also, in my research, noticed that better aftermarket bearings are only marketed for car models that  have consistent bearing failure or the wheels fall.

 

I am genuinely interested - and definitely not stirring the pot.  So of course I would rather you PM or call to discuss, which would not stir the pot. 

 

Cell 561 921 7903 personal email jaymauney1@gmail.com

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In case any of you that are pushing for free accusumps and oil coolers missed it, Jay has outlined the path to (almost) free parts.

 

 

1) Ignore the issue (don’t install accusump / oil cooler in your super low VPI car which needs one)

2) Cause safety hazards by blowing up a few engines and oiling down the track

3) Jay will lower the points because you are clearly not interested in eliminating the safety problem if it means adding points 

Edited by enginerd
  • Like 6
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, enginerd said:

In case any of you that are pushing for free accusumps and oil coolers missed it, Jay has outlined the path to (almost) free parts.

 

 

1) Ignore the issue (don’t install accusump / oil cooler in your super low VPI car which needs one)

2) Cause safety hazards by blowing up a few engines and oiling down the track

3) Jay will lower the points because you are clearly not interested in eliminating the safety problem if it means adding points 

My whole engine feels pretty unsafe, one with more cylinders would definitely prevent other drivers from having to deal with an oil slick on the track...

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just use $30 cheapy replacements on my Miata.  I realize now there are super-expensive, long lasting hubs out there, but a few years ago I bought the best OEM replacement hub out there and it failed as fast as the cheapies.  So every other race I put two new ones on the front and off we go (unless at Road America, then every 8 hours).  $60 every other race is nothing in the grand scheme of things.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Jer said:

I just use $30 cheapy replacements on my Miata.  I realize now there are super-expensive, long lasting hubs out there, but a few years ago I bought the best OEM replacement hub out there and it failed as fast as the cheapies.  So every other race I put two new ones on the front and off we go (unless at Road America, then every 8 hours).  $60 every other race is nothing in the grand scheme of things.  

Man, in 20 events you could afford one of those fancy ones!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

Man, in 20 events you could afford one of those fancy ones!

You put it in green but that is the math.  I seriously doubt I will even RUN the Miata in 20 more events.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, National Tech said:

Assigning points for hubs was discussed thoroughly over a four month period by Tech and Mike and as many drivers as I could talk to at race events. TAC has chimed in as well.  The discussions started after multiple bearing failures and unfortunate early withdrawals by our members. When a few tires rolled down a hot track we were full steam ahead. We were Feeling lucky no one was hurt, but not lucky enough to continue to ignore an obvious safety issue.

 

Teams that were using non OEM bearings were not having problems except that they were not claiming points, which is a different problem.  Teams that were not using them thought they were illegal but were also not interested in eliminating the safety problem once the were I formed that they could be used at the cost of 40 points.  We are all racers so we can't judge the logic.

 

Honestly I received No negative responses to a 2.5 point penalty outside of the ones voiced here on the forum and ofcourse after the fact.

 

2020 is a new year,  so I am interested in your comments. 

 

Specifically the 2x rule thought.  Do I understand that you feel if they are less than the 2x the value of OEM then you are good with them being zero points. But 2.5 is too low?  If they are over 2x how many points per hub. How do you feel about the safety aspects.  Seem we need to start matching the bearing strength to the heavier loads the fat tires and cheap home made aero are bringing to us. I also, in my research, noticed that better aftermarket bearings are only marketed for car models that  have consistent bearing failure or the wheels fall.

 

I am genuinely interested - and definitely not stirring the pot.  So of course I would rather you PM or call to discuss, which would not stir the pot. 

 

Cell 561 921 7903 personal email jaymauney1@gmail.com

Maybe make aero and fat wheels and tires more points?

 

Or make hubs more points and make people choose between hubs and aero?  If you have failing hubs and large aero and fat tires, then you are responsible for building a safe car and you have not....

Edited by wvumtnbkr
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Maybe make aero and fat wheels and tires more points?

 

Or make hubs more points and make people choose between hubs and aero?  If you have failing hubs and large aero and fat tires, then you are responsible for building a safe car and you have not....

Indeed. Perhaps this safety issue can be resolved like other safety issues.

 

If you come with a cage that doesn’t meet the min. specs, you are required to fix it before racing.

 

Similarly, if you lose a wheel during a race, at your next race perhaps tech should require you to identify why it came off, and demonstrate that you have made changes to make it not happen in the future. This could be as simple as “it was an old part, we replaced all hubs with new ones”. But if you say “it broke because it is a weak part. We spent our remaining points on a big wing and we’re going to roll the dice and hope a wheel doesn’t come off this race”, then you wouldn’t be allowed to race this unsafe car.

Edited by enginerd
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My poorly designed crankshaft causes oil feed problems to my #2 con. rod bearing which in turn causes engine failure and oiled tracks.  I have to run an oil cooler and crankshaft scrapper to make the bearings last 1/2 a race season.  So for strictly safety purposes I should only be charged 2.5 points also.

  • Like 5
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

My poorly designed crankshaft causes oil feed problems to my #2 con. rod bearing which in turn causes engine failure and oiled tracks.  I have to run an oil cooler and crankshaft scrapper to make the bearings last 1/2 a race season.  So for strictly safety purposes I should only be charged 2.5 points also.

This covers the exact precedent that has been set and the slope greased.   How is any cooler, radiator, additional fan, stronger suspension part and so on more than 2.5 points going forward.?????

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, National Tech said:

 

Honestly I received No negative responses to a 2.5 point penalty outside of the ones voiced here on the forum and ofcourse after the fact.

 

 

Of course you haven't received any negative response till now.   The only people that knew about this value change is the ones that were already cheating and using aftermarket hubs and not claiming them.   To help them comply the series has lowered the value of the part by 75%.   Why would they complain?   If this was a 4 month process where was the announcement?  This wasn't listed on the mid season tech rules interpretation list.    This poop happens and over again no matter what and I'm over it.   Chasing a moving target is getting old.  The rules are far from stable and I'm not even sure why we have a petetion process if poop changes on a whim in the middle of the year anyways. 

Edited by Snake
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...