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Points for aftermarket / othercar hubs?

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35 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

Of course you haven't received any negative response till now.   The only people that knew about this value change is the ones that were already cheating and using aftermarket hubs and not claiming them.   To help them comply the series has lowered the value of the part by 75%.   Why would they complain?   If this was a 4 month process where was the announcement?  This wasn't listed on the mid season tech rules interpretation list.    This poop happens and over again no matter what and I'm over it.   Chasing a moving target is getting old.  The rules are far from stable and I'm not even sure why we have a petetion process if poop changes on a whim in the middle of the year anyways. 

Yea I agree.  It’s hard to understand how it works and it’s still too subjective I think.  When someone gets called out using a non oem part it would seem like tech would have to go to the rule book and pick the closest thing to that part to assign points.  In this case it’d be suspension parts at 10pts each.   Then if someone thinks that’s too high they can petition for a change in that specific part.     

 

I’ve watched many many hours of Miata’s going by with all four wheels.  I think the safety argument is way over used when someone wants to buy a shinny new thing for performance and reliability. 

 

 

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He'll, a member of the tac (who sells the type of hubs we are talking about) is blindsided by this....  and d oesnt agree....

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Started to stress about all this and then remembered I was EC.  😎

 

#ECnocare

 

 

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Hubs are weak and need to be replaced all the time? Too bad, we didn't pick your car. Don't want to spend points on things that don't make you faster? Too bad, you might not finish the race. 

 

Why not announce the rule changes to the whole series so we all can benefit from it as soon as it happens? Why are some people allowed to benefit and not others?

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1 hour ago, Originalsterm said:

Hubs are weak and need to be replaced all the time? Too bad, we didn't pick your car. Don't want to spend points on things that don't make you faster? Too bad, you might not finish the race. 

 

Why not announce the rule changes to the whole series so we all can benefit from it as soon as it happens? Why are some people allowed to benefit and not others?

Agree 100%  We run two of these apparent wheel shedding horribly reliable cars...........Can't wait to spend as much as it cost to build and entire car to outfit them with these hubs to lower our run costs......

 

Seriously though, it feels like we are losing the entire identity of the series, budget, grass roots racing.  Tell me what you can buy for some other makes made from Titanium and other space age metals all for 2.5 pts.  It makes it much easier to be the team that comes in with the $$$ to be able to compete with the teams with the knowledge to make these cars work within the rule set.

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8 hours ago, National Tech said:

Assigning points for hubs was discussed thoroughly over a four month period by Tech and Mike and as many drivers as I could talk to at race events. TAC has chimed in as well.  The discussions started after multiple bearing failures and unfortunate early withdrawals by our members. When a few tires rolled down a hot track we were full steam ahead. We were Feeling lucky no one was hurt, but not lucky enough to continue to ignore an obvious safety issue.

 

Teams that were using non OEM bearings were not having problems except that they were not claiming points, which is a different problem.  Teams that were not using them thought they were illegal but were also not interested in eliminating the safety problem once the were I formed that they could be used at the cost of 40 points.  We are all racers so we can't judge the logic.

 

Honestly I received No negative responses to a 2.5 point penalty outside of the ones voiced here on the forum and ofcourse after the fact.

 

2020 is a new year,  so I am interested in your comments. 

 

Specifically the 2x rule thought.  Do I understand that you feel if they are less than the 2x the value of OEM then you are good with them being zero points. But 2.5 is too low?  If they are over 2x how many points per hub. How do you feel about the safety aspects.  Seem we need to start matching the bearing strength to the heavier loads the fat tires and cheap home made aero are bringing to us. I also, in my research, noticed that better aftermarket bearings are only marketed for car models that  have consistent bearing failure or the wheels fall.

 

I am genuinely interested - and definitely not stirring the pot.  So of course I would rather you PM or call to discuss, which would not stir the pot. 

 

Cell 561 921 7903 personal email jaymauney1@gmail.com

 

If wheels are rolling across the track, then teams are either pushing the car too hard, or not being diligent enough about maintanance/inspections.  This whole thing stinks like backroom deals and the good ol boys clubs.

 

Points keep costs and speed in check because dollars cannot.  There will always be someone willing to throw metric tons of money at a car to buy a trophy.  The points system and the TCV before it worked to keep that in check.  And in single class racing it absolutely Must be kept in check.  In class racing, the big boys want to run the top two classes which let's the rest of us race each other on relatively fair terms.  Without classes us open trailer racers are more and more trying to compete directly with stacker trailers, toterhomes, and paid pit crews.  Points keep them from running away with everything.  2X rule maybe, but 10 points per corner sounds a lot more reasonable when it's clear nobody "needs" fancy aftermarket hubs, they just want them, and they don't want to pay the points.  Especially in a series that explicitly bans carbon fiber for anything other than driver comfort.

 

Don't want to wreck hubs?  Keep the tires nearer to stock width, or don't run 2,000 pounds worth of aero.  Not to mention stay off the curbing.  This is endurance racing, not SM.

 

The more I read, the more I fear a new entry level series is only a few more disgruntled members away.  Way to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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I don't think it's a big deal, I ofcourse welcome it :)

Race fees and rebuilding an engine (to OEM spec) are still the big $$$$$$. 

 

I couldn't find the 2.5 pts in the BCCR? Was this communicated elsewhere?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

Don't want to wreck hubs?  Keep the tires nearer to stock width, or don't run 2,000 pounds worth of aero.  Not to mention stay off the curbing.  This is endurance racing, not SM.

 

 I came here to make this point!

 

 There wouldn't be a hub issue if the treadwear rating on the tires was a real thing as opposed to the tire manufacturers making numbers up to get in to these series. Too much free aero, too much free brakes, too much free power, too much going over the curbing, too much free suspension simply leads to the necessity of all but free hubs.

 Free accusumps are next because of the oil starvation due to increased corner speed.

 

 Why, on earth, are hubs not listed in the rules if the decision was made four months ago?

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Well that is an interesting look into the east, 5 points is the hurdle for it to get the old, "We need it so therefore it is free" routine.  If 5 points is the deterrent I wonder what it says about a 50 point deterrent?  For titanium hubs, do the old magnet test for a quick check.

 

I wonder what this means for the Mustang?  In the past the hub and spindle swap were given 10 points per corner as per a suspension component.  The spindle needed the hub to "work" so it was included.  The old style being a spindle bearing face and the bearing mounted in the rotor, the new style being the sealed bearing hub bolted onto the spindle and a rotor hat.  I wonder if one would now claim:

 

1. 10 points per spindle plus 2.5 points per hub.

2. 10 points per spindle then say it needs the hub to work so the hub is included as before.

3. 2.5 points per hub then say it needs the spindle to work so the spindle is included.  I'm guessing this is the winner because hubs are now defined in the rules.  Or maybe similar to the 4 bolt "redrilled" to 5 bolt for the rear axles the old front spindle was melted down, recast and machined as a 94-95 spindle, then of course the 2.5 point hub is bolted on - that seems pretty believable.  :lol:

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11 hours ago, ETR said:

Started to stress about all this and then remembered I was EC.  😎

 

#ECnocare

 

 

 

Maybe this is part of a bigger plan to make EC cars fall into a "normal" class.  Reduce the points of all the additional mods to reduce the total value of EC cars to something less than 500.  Maybe this thread should be merged with the "handling EC cars" thread.

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Why is it that after we allow "big aero" at limited points, bigger wheel/tire combos that require additional rules on "how to legally flare your fenders" we are surprised at bearing failures?  Being this is (supposedly) a limited prep, grassroots series, shouldn't we reconsider the first two problems rather than create another (near free bearings - now framed as a "safety issue"?).  Perhaps one should look at reducing aero allowances and require stock fender profiles/wheel openings!

 

Flame on as it seem there is a small vocal group of "haves" that seem to be driving the series and tech in their own image.  As others have mentioned, when is it time to consider the competitors the series has/will loose due to rules/speed creep vs. the number it might loose by not keeping the series "limited" in mods?  I would suggest there are more competitors comfortable with a more limited prep approach than those with time/money to continually engineer more mods.  I also chuckle when it seems many of these same folks are radically opposed to changing any fuel rules on capacity (I didn't pick your car!) in a series that is already limited to two hour stints.  Runaway loosening of rules to appease a few top teams has killed many bigger and more popular series/classes than this one.  Only time will tell if history will repeat itself yet again.  

 

So to those experiencing bearing issues - I didn't pick your car, nor did I make you add big aero, nor did I choose a wheel/tire combo that far exceeds the capacity of the bearing package you were allowed to run.  But in the interests of "safety", I will be petitioning for any size fuel cell to be allowed at zero points as fewer pit stops will keep pit road safer.

 

Headed off to put on my nomex now.....

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Indy just called, you are now required to buy all miata hubs from the track when you get there.

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Honestly, I find it odd that this has blown up...

 

Hubs are NOT a suspension component, nor will they make anyone faster, actually, as I mentioned earlier, they are weight where one does not want more.

 

Carry on, the sky is not falling, all I care about is Indy prep, and its almost done.

 

No green font used or implied.

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21 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Honestly, I find it odd that this has blown up...

 

Hubs are NOT a suspension component, nor will they make anyone faster, actually, as I mentioned earlier, they are weight where one does not want more.

 

Carry on, the sky is not falling, all I care about is Indy prep, and its almost done.

 

No green font used or implied.

Are the billet aluminum hubs from willwood heavier?   Are titanium hubs heavier.    Your builds include mostly parts from the pick and pull.  (It’s awesome and how it should be).   Every other team does not do it like you do.      

 

I’m pulling for you and every other spirit of grassroots team at Indy for sure.  

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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

Are the billet aluminum hubs from willwood heavier?   Are titanium hubs heavier.    Your builds include mostly parts from the pick and pull.  (It’s awesome and how it should be).   Every other team does not do it like you do.      

 

I’m pulling for you and every other spirit of grassroots team at Indy for sure.  

Is the grass that much greener when running other alloy hubs or does it keep the inevitable speed creep safer?

 

People can also use this power to run beefier stock stuff, this part of the car, be it heavy or light, aint going to change lap times.

 

And thank you!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Is the grass that much greener when running other alloy hubs or does it keep the inevitable speed creep safer?

 

People can also use this power to run beefier stock stuff, this part of the car, be it heavy or light, aint going to change lap times.

 

And thank you!

Fewer points spent on hubs leaves more points to spend on engine and aero. 

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Just now, enginerd said:

Fewer points spent on hubs leaves more points to spend on engine and aero. 

From my perspective, generally speaking, those items increase fuel burn.

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9 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

Don't want to wreck hubs?  Keep the tires nearer to stock width, or don't run 2,000 pounds worth of aero.  Not to mention stay off the curbing.  This is endurance racing, not SM.

 

The more I read, the more I fear a new entry level series is only a few more disgruntled members away.  Way to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!  If you are taking your car beyond the limits of the stock components you are then in need of an increase in performance over stock.   2.5pts is ridiculous and does smell shady.  Most hub failures I've seen aren't catastrophic wheel launching failures either, it's the bearings themselves that let go from improper maintenance and checking by the team racing them.

 

41 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Hubs are NOT a suspension component, nor will they make anyone faster, actually, as I mentioned earlier, they are weight where one does not want more.

 

 

If I know that I can now drive over every rumble flat out without worrying about the stress I am putting on the hub/bearing assembly with all of my aero and hp that we have already added, then yes, I am now much faster in some cases 2-3's a lap faster.

 

 

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Oh I get your point, but honestly, are we all leaving 2 to 3 seconds a lap on the table? Wouldn’t those that can benefit the most from driving rumble strips all day simply change their hubs every race and do so anyway?  Also, all day  rumble strips will take their toll if the rest of the car isn’t up to it.

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Hubs are a safety concern and get a point reduction, mid-season, no announcement

 

yet a skid plate petition gets denied because its too hard to determine the difference in a skid plate and a splitter?

 

tenor.gif?itemid=5480485

 

 

Y'all didn't care when I lost my poop about mid-season unannounced changes to aero values... Doesn't feel good, I hope you understand my position more now  (No names, you know who you are)

Edited by Huggy
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17 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

Man, in 20 events you could afford one of those fancy ones!

I don't know where @Jer is getting $30 hubs, ours were $150 a piece. At that cost the math sure made since to me.

 

I also am unsure of where the idea of shady dealings is coming from. In my experience, we showed up with changes to the car to accommodate the assigned value, to be informed that the value had changed. If there was any lobbying, I'm not sure where it came from.

 

 

Edited by Wink

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19 hours ago, National Tech said:

Assigning points for hubs was discussed thoroughly over a four month period by Tech and Mike and as many drivers as I could talk to at race events. TAC has chimed in as well.  The discussions started after multiple bearing failures and unfortunate early withdrawals by our members. When a few tires rolled down a hot track we were full steam ahead. We were Feeling lucky no one was hurt, but not lucky enough to continue to ignore an obvious safety issue.

 

Teams that were using non OEM bearings were not having problems except that they were not claiming points, which is a different problem.  Teams that were not using them thought they were illegal but were also not interested in eliminating the safety problem once the were I formed that they could be used at the cost of 40 points.  We are all racers so we can't judge the logic.

 

Honestly I received No negative responses to a 2.5 point penalty outside of the ones voiced here on the forum and ofcourse after the fact.

 

2020 is a new year,  so I am interested in your comments. 

 

Specifically the 2x rule thought.  Do I understand that you feel if they are less than the 2x the value of OEM then you are good with them being zero points. But 2.5 is too low?  If they are over 2x how many points per hub. How do you feel about the safety aspects.  Seem we need to start matching the bearing strength to the heavier loads the fat tires and cheap home made aero are bringing to us. I also, in my research, noticed that better aftermarket bearings are only marketed for car models that  have consistent bearing failure or the wheels fall.

 

I am genuinely interested - and definitely not stirring the pot.  So of course I would rather you PM or call to discuss, which would not stir the pot. 

 

Cell 561 921 7903 personal email jaymauney1@gmail.com

 

"Assigning points for hubs was discussed thoroughly over a four month period by Tech and Mike and as many drivers as I could talk to at race events"

 

Let me just say that his pile of crap right here is supposedly what was eliminated when the "old" chumpcar powers that be were removed.  No one thought an email should be sent out? Not once did anyone stop and ask "Didn't we commit to not changing the rules during the year"? No one? Not once? Seriously, I was told there would be no rule changes mid year and any would be clearly communicated. None of that occured here, just found out about this rule change perusing the forum.

 

"The discussions started after multiple bearing failures and unfortunate early withdrawals by our members." HA what an absolute JOKE! considering lowering points because a few teams had their races ended early? Seriously, laughable. Like for real, the rest of your post is moot after this.  STOP WRITING RULES FOR THE UNFORTUNATE FEW.

 

"...ignore an obvious safety issue" LOL ok you have to be joking now.  Have yet to see anyone policing wheel integrity, studs, torquing, lug engagement, etc even after wheels and studs have failed in the field. (how many cars have all their lug nuts at the end of a race? Did anyone bother to ask?)  But you're gonna lower the point value to placate the guys who weren't claiming the points to begin with?  You are literally punishing everyone who follows the rules to make a couple of teams comply with them.  Did I mention what a complete JOKE this is!?

 

It's unsafe for me to bolt a chinese turbo onto my engine and oil the course with holes in the block, gonna let me built a forged rotating assembly for free now?  And change the rules to allow me to do so without telling anyone about it?  Way to utterly bungle this one; and just over a year removed from the so-called "transparency" push that was made/elections held/"member board" no less?

 

It would appear that the "transparency" has reverted to completely shady dealings, and with an accelerated rate of cost and speed creep than before.  What a complete disappointment.  I hope you all wise up quick and correct course after this debacle.  How about placating the 100 other teams for once instead of the 5 bitching loud enough to be annoying?  STOP WRITING RULES FOR THE UNFORTUNATE FEW

Edited by BollingerChump
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5 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Also, all day  rumble strips will take their toll if the rest of the car isn’t up to it.

That’s why we also need free adjustable shocks, free coil overs, free control arms, free tubular trailing arms and subframes. All for safety of course, because we are racers and we aren’t going to spend points on safety/durability items.

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16 minutes ago, Wink said:

I don't know where @Jer is getting $30 hubs, ours were $150 a piece. At that cost the math sure made since to me.

 

I also am unsure of where the idea of shady dealings is coming from. In my experience, we showed up with changes to the car to accommodate the assigned value, to be informed that the value had changed. If there was any lobbying, I'm not sure where it came from.

 

 

Probably the same place we are....Rock Auto.  They haven't seemed to fail any quicker than the fancy "blue printed" ones from Flying Miata, which I am assuming you are running?  Also, it tends to be the bearings that get loose anyways, not the whole hub catastrophically failing that we have seen.

Edited by hotchkis23
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Also, for those that are going to say servicing hubs/bearings is difficult.....I present you with this: Life Saver!

 

Been using it for a while now, no issues with bearings failing due to heat/improper maintenance.

Edited by hotchkis23
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