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Points for aftermarket / othercar hubs?

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31 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

Probably the same place we are....Rock Auto.  They haven't seemed to fail any quicker than the fancy "blue printed" ones from Flying Miata, which I am assuming you are running?  Also, it tends to be the bearings that get loose anyways, not the whole hub catastrophically failing that we have seen.

I would not run anything from Rock Auto on a race car... But hey that's just me

 

The improper casting and machining on the the back is a larger issue to me than the bearings failing. Timken and other Autozone specials have incorrect cuts around the studs, leading the complete flange failure. There is a particular part number of Centrics that have the correct machining.

 

We've seen as much flange failure as bearing. 

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Are the billet aluminum hubs from willwood heavier?   Are titanium hubs heavier.      

 

Enter car nerd stuff....

 

With the small packaging space most oem hubs have due to fitting sealed bearings, i would assume the design parameter to be worried about would be stiffness and retaining bearing (steel) fit to the hub. 

 

In that case the modulus per weight would be the defining material selection criteria, Ti and aluminum would most likely be heavier. If you don't care how sloppy it gets and just want a little more strength, maybe the other materials help. 

 

Exit car nerd stuff....

 

Seeing this for what it is worth, most of us with hub problems find some hub listed as fitting our car on one of the parts vendors that has better geometry and change em often. Neon world this is generally the "napa" hub which is gen 2 neon geometry made to fit a gen 1, cause it is cheaper for napa to do it that way and have one blank. It fixes the issue of poor fillet radius where the cylinder for the bearing meets the flange of the hub. This is what causes hubs the fully separate on neons and other cars with poor design. Oem width wheels will do it, and a few of us lucky souls also have access to the mopar updates acr hubs that address the issue. They are $$, but a legal oem mopar part used in gen 1 production on acr cars. 

 

There are cheaper ways to handle the hub issue, with several teams choosing knuckle swaps. I have asked several times for a value on knuckle swaps, and it still isn't in fixed vpi. I think this should be pretty cheap, as the performance value is small. Some people do this under a "paper trans swap", where they claim a trans swap from a car with the needed stuff as the tradition has been to get the axles and knuckles with a hub. The 25 points is cheaper than adding up all the 10 points for each part.

 

Being real, TAC doesn't have a formula to evaluate the point benefit of keeping your wheels and hubs on. It wasn't baked into vpi. Lots of things are not put into vpi, and we could make a whole thread on vpi\weights that have been baked to allow one person's car to compete. I would really prefer to see approved "models" with engine,basic "safety\reliability" mods included for a fixed vpi. Would make life alot easier to list a vpi for a miata, which includes the ability to run the hubs and whatever else is needed for reliability. Not running those parts would not offer a discount over the miata value (value includes the right to run oem or the parta listed). 

 

In the mean time i will continue to run the parts needed to make a competitive car, and will experiment with pulling reliability items for points, rebuilding engines sooner, and using acr\my pick of the best neon vendor parts to avoid paying for items other teams will need to take point for (some of those parts are hard to find). For you miata guys, i guess make a deal with autozone or another parts vendor to carry those hubs listed as direct fit for a miata, and run em for 0 points if needed.

Edited by Black Magic

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28 minutes ago, Wink said:

The improper casting and machining on the the back is a larger issue to me than the bearings failing. Timken and other Autozone specials have incorrect cuts around the studs, leading the complete flange failure. There is a particular part number of Centrics that have the correct machining.

 

We've seen as much flange failure as bearing. 

 

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I had that exact failure on a Timken.  I went for one hell of a ride through the prairie at High Plains.  That was the last time I spent more on a hub.  Now I just preventively change them and have not had an issue.  Of course I throw away "perfectly good" hubs.  But we all know better.  

Edited by Jer

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20 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

There are cheaper ways to handle the hub issue, with several teams choosing knuckle swaps. I have asked several times for a value on knuckle swaps, and it still isn't in fixed vpi. I think this should be pretty cheap, as the performance value is small.

 

How is a knuckle not a "suspension component"?

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2 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

How is a knuckle not a "suspension component"?

 

Knuckle + hub + bearing + axle + whatever else to swap into car (some cars tie rod end type, ball joint end type, etc). 

 

Adding all of those up would make a knuckle swap more than an engine swap on a fwd car, and maybe even a rwd car.

Edited by Black Magic

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Something tells me that the 2.5 points/hub value was arrived at to keep the complaining team's car under 500 points.

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So first we have "0" point $1,100 miata Penske shocks being accepted with no membership debate or vote and now we have high dollar miata hubs having there point values being changed to some random 2.50 number with no one knowing again about these rule changes...

 

Club leadership is telling us one thing but doing the complete opposite of what their telling us every 6 month...

 

Very disappointing...

 

 

Edited by Racer7x
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To add fuel to the backroom lobbying conspiracy:  So the discussion "started" right around when the Miatahubs billet hubs became available,  and then assigned a low 2.5pt/ea value within days of series sponsor Wilwood releasing their version of the upgraded miata hubs?  Remember when Wilwood brakes only were the cheapest option...

 

Coincidence?

 

For the record, since repacking our front wheel bearings with Amsoil Dominator Race Grease between each race weekend we havent failed a wheel bearing in 3+ years.  thats also with big front/rear aero and 225 or 245 tires.  Also have never failed a front wheel bearing flange.  We find original from the factory used hubs, inspect and repack.  - Now I am sure we will be failing bearings next race.

 

My two cents:  2.5pts is too low since they really are not REQUIRED to be safe.

Edited by Alchemy Autosport
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12 minutes ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

To add fuel to the backroom lobbying conspiracy:  So the discussion "started" right around when the Miatahubs billet hubs became available, which are sold by a board/TAC member (did I read that correctly?) and then assigned a low 2.5pt/ea value within days of series sponsor Wilwood releasing their version of the upgraded miata hubs?  

No, you didn't read that correctly.

 @wvumtnbkr had the correct information when he posted that a TAC member (me) that sells hubs did not know of the reduction in points from 10 to 2.5 until reading it here.

In fact I posted early on in this thread that aftermarket hubs are 10 points each.

 

To further set the record straight:

The miatahubs.com are not made, nor sold by anyone on the TAC/BOD.

The builder is a former Champcar supporter who now primarily runs his cars in other series, but he occasionally drives for Champ teams.

I myself have advertised and sold billet hubs for the Ford Focus, which are nowhere near the price of the miatahubs.

I don't know of any other TAC or BOD members who sell hubs.

Once again, I was also surprised by the new point value, as the first I heard of it (like may others) is from National Tech's explanation here on the forum.

My car (and the Focus platform) benefit from this rule, but I do not advocate it.

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Just now, mcoppola said:

No, you didn't read that correctly.

 @wvumtnbkr had the correct information when he posted that a TAC member (me) that sells hubs did not know of the reduction in points from 10 to 2.5 until reading it here.

In fact I posted early on in this thread that aftermarket hubs are 10 points each.

 

To further set the record straight:

The miatahubs.com are not made, nor sold by anyone on the TAC/BOD.

The builder is a former Champcar supporter who now primarily runs his cars in other series, but he occasionally drives for Champ teams.

I myself have advertised and sold billet hubs for the Ford Focus, which are nowhere near the price of the miatahubs.

I don't know of any other TAC or BOD members who sell hubs.

Once again, I was also surprised by the new point value, as the first I heard of it (like may others) is from National Tech's explanation here on the forum.

My car (and the Focus platform) benefit from this rule, but I do not advocate it.

noted, and corrected the post.  Thanks for the quick clarification and sorry for the misread.

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5 hours ago, Jer said:

I had that exact failure on a Timken.  I went for one hell of a ride through the prairie at High Plains.  That was the last time I spent more on a hub.  Now I just preventively change them and have not had an issue.  Of course I throw away "perfectly good" hubs.  But we all know better.  

 

 

So you're saying you didn't need free points on a set of compenents to change hubs preventively???

 

It's almost like your team took upon itself to change parts before they become a safety issue, instead of getting a rule written to allow for a free upgrade. 

 

Even worse, your point here makes it obvious the rule was changed to make one or a handful of folks happy, since multiple Miata campaginers are right here telling us it's a non-safety related issue, and a relatively low cost consumable.   @National Tech is telling us we need the rule because of the clear and present safety risk of wheels falling off cars left and right.  Laughable. 

Edited by BollingerChump
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49 minutes ago, BollingerChump said:

 

 

So you're saying you didn't need free points on a set of compenents to change hubs preventively???

 

It's almost like your team took upon itself to change parts before they become a safety issue, instead of getting a rule written to allow for a free upgrade. 

 

To play devil's advocate.. What's the difference? If everyone is saying their hub prep is bulletproof, why does it matter for someone to take points for high rolling resistance and more unsprung weight?

 

You wouldn't change them if they weren't a safety issue.. 

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35 minutes ago, Wink said:

To play devil's advocate.. What's the difference? If everyone is saying their hub prep is bulletproof, why does it matter for someone to take points for high rolling resistance and more unsprung weight?

 

You wouldn't change them if they weren't a safety issue.. 

 

I believe people are changing/maintaining their hubs so that they don't have a failure mid-race and have to change hubs or retire early from a race.  Sounds like the reason is more so they have better performance/race results....not because of safety.

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2 hours ago, BollingerChump said:

So you're saying you didn't need free points on a set of compenents to change hubs preventively???

I think whether you spend a lot on great hubs that last forever or cheap ones that need to be treated as disposables, you get the same result: hubs that don't fail.  One option comes with points, the other comes with more labor.  

Edited by Jer
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Just now, Jer said:

I think whether you spend a lot of great hubs that last forever or cheap ones that needed to be treated as disposables, you get the same result: hubs that don't fail.  One option comes with points, the other comes with more labor.  

Which is literally the foundation of the series.

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27 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

 

I believe people are changing/maintaining their hubs so that they don't have a failure mid-race and have to change hubs or retire early from a race.  Sounds like the reason is more so they have better performance/race results....not because of safety.

Same argument as free heat exchangers...  Now that I have more cooling capacity, I can more safely run the engine lean for more power/better fuel consumption...  Now that I have more robust hubs that I am not worried about failing, I can run wider tires, more effective aero, hit all the kerbs...

 

... Wait, wait...  I meant its for Safety!  yea, def for safety and NOT to do with going faster AT ALL!  How dare you accuse otherwise! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

Edited by Alchemy Autosport
Added green sarcasm!
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18 minutes ago, Jer said:

I think whether you spend a lot of great hubs that last forever or cheap ones that needed to be treated as disposables, you get the same result: hubs that don't fail.  One option comes with points, the other comes with more labor.  

Not always true. The OEM and parts store hubs for the Focus have an inherent problem. The machined radius on the backface of the hub flange where the bearing rides is very sharp, and the cracks propagate from there. Besides being made of better material, the aftermarket hubs solve this issue by cutting a broader radius, and beefing up that area with additional material.

 

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“Miata hubs don’t break unless you’re running hoohoos and big aero”

 

Harris Hill Raceway- “Hold my beer.”

 

Argue points all day and how they came to be, I don’t care. But they can and do break in ugly fashion at the hub face and no amount of repacking with unicorn grease will stop that.

 

Anyone know exactly how many broke at the March H2R race?  I know I saw at least one wheel/rotor/caliper assembly tossed and heard of a couple others.  

Edited by ETR

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5 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

 Besides being made of better material, the aftermarket hubs solve this issue by cutting a broader radius, and beefing up that area with additional material.

 

Looks a bit lighter, too.

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We've been developing our own hubs and plan to release light weight versions in both 4140 and Titanium for the miata.  The Titanium hubs are about half the weight.  In simulation they are 10x stronger than stock on the flange.  

 

The 4140 units will be reasonably priced but the titanium units will be very expensive.

 

 

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1 hour ago, QuaTTro said:

 

I believe people are changing/maintaining their hubs so that they don't have a failure mid-race and have to change hubs or retire early from a race.  Sounds like the reason is more so they have better performance/race results....not because of safety.

I would point out that when the failure leads to an uncontrollable car with no brakes, the safety aspect should be considered..

 

What are we most mad about?

That these are legal?

That we don't have them?

That they cost more?

That the bench racer inside us feels cheated, (remember everyone still has to go race..)

That a series sponsor is now offering the same product that we're mad about?

That we didn't know?

How the points changed?

 

All I know is that I'm angry!

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On 7/6/2019 at 7:57 AM, Originalsterm said:

Is a 4 lug to 5 lug conversion 10 points?

 

Serious question

Not even close. See Fox-body Mustangs...

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1 hour ago, Wink said:

I would point out that when the failure leads to an uncontrollable car with no brakes, the safety aspect should be considered..

 

What are we most mad about?

That these are legal?

That we don't have them?

That they cost more?

That the bench racer inside us feels cheated, (remember everyone still has to go race..)

That a series sponsor is now offering the same product that we're mad about?

That we didn't know?

How the points changed?

 

All I know is that I'm angry!

Not mad

 

I think the points for this component are too low.   

 

Not sure it followed the process that I thought would be followed.  

 

If it’s really a safety issue shouldn’t it be a mandatory modification before a car is allowed on track?    

 

 

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29 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

 

If it’s really a safety issue shouldn’t it be a mandatory modification before a car is allowed on track?    

 

 

 

SCCA spec neon regs banned the stock neon hub for that exact reason, forcing knuckle swap of pt\shadow or purchase of acr hub to compete. 

 

Nature of the politics of champcar, i would assume an allowed swap to heavier parts to fix one car's achilles heel in durability to meet protest, a requirement or even suggestion to swap might be even harder for us to do.

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