Classes based on fuel instead of displacement

[mender]

I know, wrong time of the year to start a discussion. Wait until the fall when most people have broken race cars and no money left from the year's budget to fix them, right?

 

There was some talk about equalizing the physics of platforms and the possible uproar that would result. Much has been made of the sacred fuel rules and the common belief that they keep speed creep in check. Much less has been made of the fact that car selection is increasingly restricted by the need to choose cars with big fuel tanks in order to compete for the overall win. 

 

Here's a concept for the class racers: set the classes by fuel to weight ratio rather than the present engine displacement divisions and see who actually does more with less.

[Team Infiniti]

 Classes are for added drama, otherwise, we have no class.

 

 Saying that, Sunday’s goal for us was a class D win, but got derailed by a incident.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Team Infiniti

[mender]

I agree; the classes are an interesting aside but the focus in Champcar is still running well overall.

 

That being said, I think doing well within a specific fuel to weight ratio is a more pertinent performance indicator than displacement.

 

You should paint the Infiniti white with big black splotches ...  

[67Mustang]

I would argue that displacement classes probably make more sense to outsiders for understandings sake.  A fuel volume to car weight ratio formula would be confusing to many.

[ross2004]

4 hours ago, 67Mustang said:

I would argue that displacement classes probably make more sense to outsiders for understandings sake

Outsiders think it goes A, B, C, D, in order of "best" to "worst."

[MoparBoyy]

After just running at Road Atlanta with a 'horsepower vs weight' series, I think champcar does it better.

[ABR-Glen]

41 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

After just running at Road Atlanta with a 'horsepower vs weight' series, I think champcar does it better.

Does what better?

Dividing the field into similarly performing cars? (This is what most people expect classes to be)

Giving awards to the most deserving teams? (Can certainly argue this is more important)

[MoparBoyy]

21 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Does what better?

Dividing the field into similarly performing cars? (This is what most people expect classes to be)

Giving awards to the most deserving teams? (Can certainly argue this is more important)

 

title of thread is "Classes based on fuel instead of displacement"

[theblue]

oh hell no.   fuel is the equalizer that stops really powerful cars from making 2 hours and thus gives slower cars a better shot at catching them while they pit extra.  

 

this proposal is just another way to allow speed creep and back door bracket racing.

[67Mustang]

Just wait till I build a 66 big block Galaxie with a legal 28 gal cell....   Will make sure it's a four door so it will look slow though

[Black Magic]

33 minutes ago, theblue said:

oh hell no.   fuel is the equalizer that stops really powerful cars from making 2 hours and thus gives slower cars a better shot at catching them while they pit extra.  

 

this proposal is just another way to allow speed creep and back door bracket racing.

 

I think he was proposing to allow all of the cars that DONT have the fuel to weight to match the overall winning platforms something to race for. 

 

I think he was assuming it to be a better answer than true equity, adding fuel to those cars or forcing lower capacity cells on the cars with high fuel to weight.    

 

Either way you would be able to race against people with the same fuel limitations or surplus as yourself. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Black Magic

[Team Infiniti]

31 minutes ago, theblue said:

oh hell no.   fuel is the equalizer that stops really powerful cars from making 2 hours and thus gives slower cars a better shot at catching them while they pit extra.  

 

this proposal is just another way to allow speed creep and back door bracket racing.

Quoting this for fact, not to mention Im too sapped to have thought/typed it before blue did.

 

1 minute ago, Black Magic said:

 

I think he was proposing to allow all of the cars that DONT have the fuel to weight to match the overall winning platforms something to race for. 

 

I think he was assuming it to be a better answer than true equity, adding fuel to those cars or forcing lower capacity cells on the cars with high fuel to weight.    

 

Either way you would be able to race against people with the same fuel limitations or surplus as yourself. 

Unintended consequences of breaking from what the entire series was built upon would hurt more then help.

[Black Magic]

9 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 

Unintended consequences of breaking from what the entire series was built upon would hurt more then help.

 

Fundamental being one class racing, or guaranteed fuel advantage to only some cars (capacity can only be bought in, not upgraded to match another car)?

 

Would still have the same tech rules (cars would be the same parts they have to race now), same concept of classes we race now, same ultra low win % for cars with low fuel to weight (stats have been listed in other posts).

Edited July 16, 2019 by Black Magic

[mender]

47 minutes ago, theblue said:

oh hell no.   fuel is the equalizer that stops really powerful cars from making 2 hours and thus gives slower cars a better shot at catching them while they pit extra.  

 

this proposal is just another way to allow speed creep and back door bracket racing.

Please take the time to reread my original post without putting your personal spin on what I'm saying.

 

Nowhere did I propose any changes in the fuel rules. 

[mender]

14 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Quoting this for fact, not to mention Im too sapped to have thought/typed it before blue did.

 

Unintended consequences of breaking from what the entire series was built upon would hurt more then help.

Again, read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

[Team Infiniti]

On 7/15/2019 at 10:26 AM, mender said:

I know, wrong time of the year to start a discussion. Wait until the fall when most people have broken race cars and no money left from the year's budget to fix them, right?

 

There was some talk about equalizing the physics of platforms and the possible uproar that would result. Much has been made of the sacred fuel rules and the common belief that they keep speed creep in check. Much less has been made of the fact that car selection is increasingly restricted by the need to choose cars with big fuel tanks in order to compete for the overall win. 

 

Here's a concept for the class racers: set the classes by fuel to weight ratio rather than the present engine displacement divisions and see who actually does more with less.

As requested, re-read with a little more sleep, I see this is not a attempt to get fuel, but merely a suggestion to change classing AFTER  equalizing platforms, short answer: Not really into it...

 

There was a well driven basic vortec 5.7 olde school firebird on the podium as D winner, while flawed, the current classes do fine, C class is the most populated/most often overall winning  class and the hardest to garner class win, other classes, less populated, less represented on the podium, slightly easier % to get class victory. What I am saying, as wrong as the structure seems, perversely, it works.

 

Yeah, I am resisting change but only because I see where it works rather then where it fails.

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Team Infiniti

[Team Infiniti]

3 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Fundamental being one class racing, or guaranteed fuel advantage to only some cars (capacity can only be bought in, not upgraded to match another car)?

 

 One class racing with built-in OEM opinions on fuel capacity.

[Black Magic]

15 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 One class racing with built-in OEM opinions on fuel capacity.

 

As a mission statement, might be tough to keep a series going on just the two tenants of 

 

We all race as one class

 

You have to run oem tank. If you find a creative way to use the oem tank and gain enough capacity, people will flame you and make up weakly enforced rules on "tank appearance" with miles of variation on filler neck length and routing. When this still doesn't give the cars purchased based on their oem fuel capacity enough advantage, pump out tests will be threatened despite ability for competitors to game the pumpout procedure......

 

I do appreciate everyone has different ideas of what elements makes the series tighter, and the best option lies in the middle of making no one happy and no one that angry. My idealized mission statement for the series leans towards all cars having an equal chance to have the same physics, power, fuel, aero, etc in proportion to their size. You ability to use those potentials is up to the end builder. 

 

Separating the classes might end up unifying the series more, the guys that don't buy the "right" cars would be drawn into or retained more as they can race other misfits (and still lose out to the car types favored in the rules, but "compete" overall).

 

 

 

 

 

[mender]

2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

As requested, re-read with a little more sleep, I see this is not a attempt to get fuel, but merely a suggestion to change classing AFTER  equalizing platforms, short answer: Not really into it...

 

There was a well driven basic vortec 5.7 olde school firebird on the podium as D winner, while flawed, the current classes do fine, C class is the most populated/most often overall winning  class and the hardest to garner class win, other classes, less populated, less represented on the podium, slightly easier % to get class victory. What I am saying, as wrong as the structure seems, perversely, it works.

 

Yeah, I am resisting change but only because I see where it works rather then where it fails.

 

Thanks for rereading.

 

My suggestion was without any fuel rule changing or equalizing platforms. As Black Magic noted, it would be about grouping cars by fuel to weight rather than displacement. If Champcar is determined to force some cars into economy runs instead of for the overall win, at least a team could see how they're doing against cars with a similar fuel disadvantage.

 

With engines that make as little as 33 hp/litre and as much as 115 hp/litre, displacement as a means of grouping cars is only a convenience and doesn't make much sense without engine configuration factors (2 valve, 4 valve, etc).

Edited July 16, 2019 by mender

[Andrew D Johnson]

21 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

Giving awards to the most deserving teams? (Can certainly argue this is more important)

 

WRL does a great job giving awards to very undeserving teams. I won several races overall from GP2  beating all the GP! GPX GTO etc. etc. (30ish car fields) and got the same award as a car that finished 1 out of 2 in GP4 where the second car was a DNS. YAY! 

 

Oh, and those GP1 M3s and Corvettes got the same award I did even though they got beat by a lower class civic. Bravo! 

Champcar gives real awards to the deserving teams and then a small award for the classes. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by red0

[ABR-Glen]

8 hours ago, red0 said:

 

WRL does a great job giving awards to very undeserving teams. I won several races overall from GP2  beating all the GP! GPX GTO etc. etc. (30ish car fields) and got the same award as a car that finished 1 out of 2 in GP4 where the second car was a DNS. YAY! 

 

Oh, and those GP1 M3s and Corvettes got the same award I did even though they got beat by a lower class civic. Bravo! 

Champcar gives real awards to the deserving teams and then a small award for the classes. 

My GP2 car beat all the "faster" cars on Sunday and we got the same trophy as the guys who finished last. But I got what I deserved and so did they, I'm not worried about if mine should be bigger/better than theirs. It's not a duck measuring contest, it was 4 separate races that happened to be on the track at the same time. 

 

WRL isn't trying to follow option B, they are trying to follow option A, and they are definitely doing that better at than CC does, not that it's valid to compare them since CC isn't even trying to do option A.

 

I was just wondering if the pseudo-classes here are working as an approach for option B,  give some recognition to cars that may not be competitive overall, but based on your response if that were to be the same level of award than you would be offended, so it seems to be a very fine line. 

 

This is the reason for the subjective awards, "Workers Choice" or "I got screwed" or whatever you want to give them out for, they are a way to recognize those teams that deserve something even if it's not for completing the most laps. Those happen to be the ones on my trophy shelf that I'm most proud of.

[67Mustang]

Well, Isn't it option "B" that works for big time series such as IMSA?  I guess the difference is that the heavy hitter classes are defined as such so when they don't win on rare occasion,  the actual winner gets some real props.  In CC in some part due to the max tank size more powerful cars are handicapped or maybe you could say the playing field is more leveled to prevent them from walking away which some inevitably would.  Also, it's a double edged sword, since CC runs endurance races you pretty much have to have all the classes together, like IMSA for example.  SVRA for example, you have everything broken into groups which works for them to some extent but you have short races which defeats the purpose of offering lots of seat time which I think is a founding principle of this series.  The other downfall of running classes separately is some will die or not support their own.  Could A or D  on their own in a two hour race field enough cars to make it worth while?  Or, you could have a distinct four hour race for each class over a weekend and then there would be none of this class win versus overall.  Maybe you could even stretch that to 5 or 6 hour individual races, but still  would there be enough A and D cars to support that idea and how much would the diminished seat time piss people off? I imagine one problem might be entry fees, since you would  immediately look at it as entry fee versus seat time.  If you did something like that, how long would it take for enough A or D cars to be created  and ready to race for those who might like that class.  It might be an interesting experiment.  Try it at one or two tracks, maybe one in the Midwest or South...  Don't know, just throwing something out there.  Comparing to Indy, if you have a car with four drivers assuming equal seat time, each got 4 hours driving time over the week end. so I guess you would have to have 8 hour races with two drivers to equal that... You could manage that over a three day weekend... food for thought maybe.

[Snake]

17 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

 One class racing with built-in OEM opinions on fuel capacity.

 

and weight

[hotchkis23]

I am in the realm of thinking that what we have here is actually working relatively well.   Example, A class is typically full or Hondas, Acuras, and Miatas.  Generally the Honda/Acuras will run faster than the Miatas by virtue of a better performing engine, however they cannot make the same fuel economy so they take more stops.  140ish vs. 160+ in some instances.  B class sees again swapped Hondas/Acuras(B20's),  Ecotech Swapped MIatas, and Neons running up towards the front.  Here it gets interesting because the Neon is already fuel limited but can make a decent amount of power, while the other swapped cars coming in, Miatas and Hondas/Acuras also fall into larger fuel deficits as well.  C class is largely the most diverse class in the series that also provides the best chance at an overall.  E30,E36,Swapped MR2, SC300, 3000gt, and Porsche fit here quite well.  All have great fuel, great pwr:wght, and are competitive out of the box.  A well prepped C class car will win the overall in most events.  D class is the class of big motors, generally thought of as American Iron.  While that is true, most have not ventured into it as it is tough to be competitive with out a decent amount of work.  Those that have put in the time and effort can make really fast and competitive cars, however they tend to have issues with fuel capacity and other things like like tire/brake wear during races that hinder their overall finishing position.  That said, we have seen some events where a D class car does end up on the podium and in some cases P1 overall.

 

Luckily for us here, we see races that tend to have more than 20 cars in an event.  When we go to a race we are trying to finish on the podium or win, but at the same time we do enjoy being able to say out of 100 cars we were able to finish in XYZ position out of 100 whether we were on the podium or broken in the garage.  WRL is only becoming intriguing to our team because of convenience to get track time without towing 8 hours+ to an event.