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Indy contact level


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Cole, "I want you to go hit the pace car.....it's the only thing you haven't hit yet"

The contact level at Indy was way to high!   The endurance racing series that controls the crash level most effectively is going to get plenty of teams who want to race without tearing their stuff up unnecessarily.  The series that doesn't get control will be left with the smasher bangers and ultimately run out of tracks who want them.

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15 minutes ago, Hal Bayless said:

Cole, "I want you to go hit the pace car.....it's the only thing you haven't hit yet"

The contact level at Indy was way to high!   The endurance racing series that controls the crash level most effectively is going to get plenty of teams who want to race without tearing their stuff up unnecessarily.  The series that doesn't get control will be left with the smasher bangers and ultimately run out of tracks who want them.

 

a4e.jpg

 

 

Awesome first post, by the way. 

 

 

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I think the unfamiliarity of the track caused a bunch of issues.

 

Also, there were a few parts of the track that seemed hard to judge braking distances.  Not sure why on the braking distances, but I know I blew a few turns when I was surprised by when I needed to be on the brakes.

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Indy has a unique feature that apparently caught many drivers by surprise.  The oval is grooved longitudinally.  That is great for an IndyCar going 230 mph, needing lateral grip in the corners, but it is bad for straight line stopping.  The grooves reduce the tire's contact patch.  The braking zones for turns 1 and 13 are longer than expected, due to this loss of contact patch.  Interestingly, the grooves actually affect the street tires less than they did the slicks that we ran there in 2017.  But, I definitely saw a lot of cars blowing turns 1 and 13.  One of them ruined our weekend on Sunday.  Blew turn 13 and took out our silver car.

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3 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

Indy has a unique feature that apparently caught many drivers by surprise.  The oval is grooved longitudinally.  That is great for an IndyCar going 230 mph, needing lateral grip in the corners, but it is bad for straight line stopping.  The grooves reduce the tire's contact patch.  The braking zones for turns 1 and 13 are longer than expected, due to this loss of contact patch.  Interestingly, the grooves actually affect the street tires less than they did the slicks that we ran there in 2017.  But, I definitely saw a lot of cars blowing turns 1 and 13.  One of them ruined our weekend on Sunday.  Blew turn 13 and took out our silver car.

 

that explains a lot about why I thought my car's brakes were worse than usual.  thanks  It was like I had to get the car sideways to get good grip in T1 and T13.

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1 hour ago, theblue said:

I didn't feel the contact level was higher or worse than the glen or daytona this year.   I did feel like we had more drivers who couldn't tell you what an apex was or draw a racing line than usual.

 

Also a challenge, the fast line in places does not look like the "preferred racing line", because of the extreme levels of track out room at some corners. For example lots of cars never got out to the grass\dirt in T11. Lower power cars have to use some small variations on line there to keep the rubber band wound up. How many teams used the brakes in T7 and didn't realize the yellow\green cones moved out for day 2?

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I agree with R3Rs comment about oval braking zones - I noted the difference right away and was surprised at just how much extra braking zone was needed in T1/T13, especially compared to the much better grip in the infield. This seemed to catch many people out, especially in 13.  I also saw what I consider significantly aggressive/hopeful late brake passes that mostly worked out OK, but certainly made things interesting.

 

Other reason I saw for increased contact was drivers being unpredictable.  I witnessed a number of slower cars moving off the racing line when faster cars came up behind (mostly coming out of turn 7).  This generally does not work out well, as it either balks a faster car that has already started a move, affected a car that wasn't noticed or creates contact that would not have otherwise occurred. 

 

One of those moves (from my recollection at least) resulted in me hitting a blue neon Sunday morning ~9:56 coming out of T11.  From what I recall, I witnessed a poor line through T10 left hander, which normally would mean the trajectory would take the car way outside coming out of the T11 right hander.  I set up my car to pass them inside coming out of the corner - As I am clipping inside curb, full throttle, neon a car length or so ahead and pushing out left as was expected considering the line going into T11, I saw brake lights and the car move right.  Directly into where my car was going to end up.  Contact was inevitable at this point, left front to right rear that turned the Neon 90 degrees.  I am super glad that a secondary tap seemed to have righted the neon and he didn't spin into the wall.  It seemed to me that driver was maybe trying to be nice and move out of my way.  AKA, an unpredictable move.   Always run the racing line, and especially do not change line part way through a cornering event with another car right there.  Faster cars tend to have a pass setup and initiated well before the car being passed reacts.  Best to hold the normal racing line and let the passing car adjust their line to get around.  

 

I did not go find the driver as I was a bit hot (mentally and physically) shortly after the incident, it took us ~3 hours to get the car going again (removing inner ball-joint that snapped off that was a few inches from the hot exhaust is not so easy), and near the end of that repair time a blue neon showed up in paddock and looked to be very busy with fixing something on the front end of the car.  Despite concentrating on my own car to get it back out on track for my other drivers, I should have had a chat once I was cooled down and car was operational again - to that team, I'm sorry for not finding you to chat and get your side of the story.  

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26 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

Indy has a unique feature that apparently caught many drivers by surprise.  The oval is grooved longitudinally.  That is great for an IndyCar going 230 mph, needing lateral grip in the corners, but it is bad for straight line stopping.  The grooves reduce the tire's contact patch.  The braking zones for turns 1 and 13 are longer than expected, due to this loss of contact patch.  Interestingly, the grooves actually affect the street tires less than they did the slicks that we ran there in 2017.  But, I definitely saw a lot of cars blowing turns 1 and 13.  One of them ruined our weekend on Sunday.  Blew turn 13 and took out our silver car.

 

wow. unless you got to do a track walk and test day, you'd never notice.

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28 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

Indy has a unique feature that apparently caught many drivers by surprise.  The oval is grooved longitudinally.  That is great for an IndyCar going 230 mph, needing lateral grip in the corners, but it is bad for straight line stopping.  The grooves reduce the tire's contact patch.  The braking zones for turns 1 and 13 are longer than expected, due to this loss of contact patch.  Interestingly, the grooves actually affect the street tires less than they did the slicks that we ran there in 2017.  But, I definitely saw a lot of cars blowing turns 1 and 13.  One of them ruined our weekend on Sunday.  Blew turn 13 and took out our silver car.

We had something odd happen with the brakes, they took more stress/heat/started pulsating much much earlier this time around, is it possibly a contributing factor? 

 

Other conditions to consider when answering:

Nothing new about the setup

Brakes are good but already on borderline of heat capacity

ABS car.

 

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54 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

We had something odd happen with the brakes, they took more stress/heat/started pulsating much much earlier this time around, is it possibly a contributing factor? 

 

Other conditions to consider when answering:

Nothing new about the setup

Brakes are good but already on borderline of heat capacity

ABS car.

 

 

Absolutely!  You're effectively running on a narrower tire, due to reduced contact patch.

 

The shark car scared me a few times in turn 1, but I was impressed that you got that heavy car to stop in time.  One time in particular, I was waiting for the thud in my passenger door, but you made it.  I can imagine that did some serious wear on the brakes.

 

Watch the broadcast from Saturday.  The lead car blew the turn 1 braking zone at the start.  The braking zone is much longer than you expect and that is because of the grooves in the track surface.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Round3Racing said:

Indy has a unique feature that apparently caught many drivers by surprise.  The oval is grooved longitudinally.  That is great for an IndyCar going 230 mph, needing lateral grip in the corners, but it is bad for straight line stopping.  The grooves reduce the tire's contact patch.  The braking zones for turns 1 and 13 are longer than expected, due to this loss of contact patch.  Interestingly, the grooves actually affect the street tires less than they did the slicks that we ran there in 2017.  But, I definitely saw a lot of cars blowing turns 1 and 13.  One of them ruined our weekend on Sunday.  Blew turn 13 and took out our silver car.

I hadn't realized that, but it makes sense.  I've been at every Indy SVRA race and the group 6 cars in particular have a lot of fun trying to get slowed down for turn 1 and your comments may point to why.  Keeping in mind those guys are really limited on tires just running Hoosier TD's or GY's on 15" rims...

 

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11 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

The shark car scared me a few times in turn 1, but I was impressed that you got that heavy car to stop in time.  One time in particular, I was waiting for the thud in my passenger door, but you made it.  I can imagine that did some serious wear on the brakes.

 

Around what time(s)? So I can either poke fun at Ed or go run and hide if it was me in the car 🤣

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22 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

The shark car scared me a few times in turn 1

Sorry about that, new track for all of us, new car for 2 of us, saying that, it is much more in control from inside then from outside appearances.

 

We only had one incident all weekend, doesn't seem to be self induced, and it was not in a brake zone.

 

I echo Pintodave wondering when this occurred, I have very little forward video from the weekend but have hope to get some of the Sunday live feed to sort through

 

Edited by Team Infiniti
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1 minute ago, Team Infiniti said:

Sorry about that, new track for all of us, new car for 2 of us, saying that, it is much more in control from inside then from outside appearances.

 

I echo Pintodave wondering when this occurred, I have very little forward video from the weekend but have hope to get some of the Sunday live feed to sort through.

 

It was probably a new driver trying to figure out what to do with the left foot since your car is deprived of that third pedal on the left...   

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1 minute ago, pintodave said:

 

Around what time(s)? So I can either poke fun at Ed or go run and hide if it was me in the car 🤣

 

Saturday, around 3:30 pm.  I was in the silver Boxster and was in a battle with @Huggy in the Lexus.  I looked in my mirror and saw the shark bearing down in the braking zone.  I was preparing for a Code Brown.  The shark made it through!  I was thoroughly impressed!!

 

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11 minutes ago, Round3Racing said:

Saturday, around 3:30 pm

Thanks, unfortunately, there is likely no forward shark video at that time... have to check notes but think that was the other new guy, not dave.

 

Wait, edit, we were randomly revolving me into the car to work on tire pressures, not sure if it was day 1 or 2 but I wound up mucking around with a conga line of 3 R3R cars closely followed by a chunk of fast burning ham, completely not aware of any ones position (not even our own)sorry if it was me.

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23 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Thanks, unfortunately, there is likely no forward shark video at that time... have to check notes but think that was the other new guy, not dave.

 

Wait, edit, we were randomly revolving me into the car to work on tire pressures, not sure if it was day 1 or 2 but I wound up mucking around with a conga line of 3 R3R cars closely followed by a chunk of fast burning ham, completely not aware of any ones position (not even our own)sorry if it was me.

 

That was exactly when it was.  All three Boxsters were lined up and @Huggy was right behind us in the Lexus.  I saw it on his video.  I will try to find it again.  It was not a problem at all.  I was just shocked at how deep you went in T1.  I was not expecting a good result.  I'll see if I can find the video clip and post it.  I do know that there was no tire smoke, no tail wagging, or any slipping and sliding.  It was a damn impressive job of braking late.

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@Team Infiniti Here it is!  Definitely looked scarier in my rear view mirror.  From this angle it looks very normal.  But you can see how close we were at T1 exit.  My mirror was full of silver shark.  And a HUGE thank you for letting our conga line through, coming onto the front straight.  I was yelling to the crew "PHOTO OP!"  They missed it.  All three team cars crossing the yard of bricks together.

 

 

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