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$2,300 stoptech front calipers/rotors - free or points

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24 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

No, it used to be a "National retail auto parts chain" 

Examples given were NAPA or Oreilly's, but that would also include Autozone (a sponsor), Advance, carquest, pep-boys, etc.

 

The dealership thing was not a thing until the past 2 years or so (I think your team was the one who got that OK'ed?)

 

The dealership, IMO, isn't a national retail chain, and allowing that price was just a step towards the cost-creep we have been doing recently.

How about you don't speculate what we did or didn't use for 2x valuation? We have both OE pricing and retail chain pricing and in both cases, it supports the parts we put on our car. 

I have spoken with three other teams that used dealer pricing for 2x parts. In one case, it was because a part was NOT available from retails parts chains. One of those teams had a dealer pull the pricing and print out the "parts estimate", which they have for documentation. 

But the fact is, the series and @chisek has stated that OE pricing is acceptable. If you don't like it, add it to the 40 other petitions you'll write for the 2021 BCCR. 

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29 minutes ago, Snorman said:

How about you don't speculate what we did or didn't use for 2x valuation? We have both OE pricing and retail chain pricing and in both cases, it supports the parts we put on our car. 

I have spoken with three other teams that used dealer pricing for 2x parts. In one case, it was because a part was NOT available from retails parts chains. One of those teams had a dealer pull the pricing and print out the "parts estimate", which they have for documentation. 

But the fact is, the series and @chisek has stated that OE pricing is acceptable. If you don't like it, add it to the 40 other petitions you'll write for the 2021 BCCR. 

Dude...  did somebody pee in your raceseat this morning?

 

I didn't see anybody speculating about your valuation...

 

You followed the rules.  Good.

 

Some of us don't like the amount of spending possible in champcar at this point.  That is the angst you might be feeling from some of us.  It isn't directed at you.  It is directed at the:

 

#spendcreep

 

#unfreethestuff

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I like where this is going!  The 2X front brakes on my 944 are $2664 and the rears are $2940 and that’s at DEALER cost not retail.  Retail will put me at $5k and $6K. 😲

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We're going to have to start sending people out into the public to see if average Joe "recognizes" the parts source. "Sir, do you recognize hondapartsonline.net?" One person from each State, averaged. 

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4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Some of us don't like the amount of spending possible in champcar at this point.  That is the angst you might be feeling from some of us.  It isn't directed at you.  It is directed at the:

 

#spendcreep

 

#unfreethestuff

 

I doubt it would happen, and I may find myself very unpopular, but I'm seriously considering writing a petition to implement a "claimer rule" for any A-D class car.  Any member can buy any car at the end of the race weekend for $20k (or whatever price is appropriate).  The owner could refuse the sale, but the car would be permanently moved to EC.

 

I expect most of the cars cost well below that, but a few big spenders can ruin it for everyone, maybe they'd think twice if I could buy their car for half price.

Edited by Grufton
typo
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The BCCR should be changed from Basic Club and Competition Rules to the much more simple BL; Basic Loopholes.

 

 We can never go back to assigning real points to all parts but I seriously wish we could. My $340 front and rear camber kit is 40 points and a $6000 Wilwood brake kit is 20 points.

 

 Yay.

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The whole budget thing sorta went out the window with the well funded teams burning $800 a barrel race fuel, and towing their "crapcans" with toter homes and stacker trailers worth 10 times more than my house.

 

The valuation rules are clearly broken, and building a car to this ruleset is becoming more and more of a spending war.

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58 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

The whole budget thing sorta went out the window with the well funded teams burning $800 a barrel race fuel, and towing their "crapcans" with toter homes and stacker trailers worth 10 times more than my house.

 

The valuation rules are clearly broken, and building a car to this ruleset is becoming more and more of a spending war.

Builders with deep pockets can spend, but, as I said earlier, take note, a well prepped e30 and series original mitsu 3000gt just won indy.

 

Priceless!

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5 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Builders with deep pockets can spend, but, as I said earlier, take note, a well prepped e30 and series original mitsu 3000gt just won indy.

 

Priceless!

 

 

true, but a very expensive car with some very expensive parts was also on the podium.

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6 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

 

true, but a very expensive car with some very expensive parts was also on the podium.

 

Only a matter of time before that's all that we see on the podium at this rate. 

 

2x brakes for some teams cost more than my whole car. Speed creep comes into play when someone doesn't like the "we didn't pick your car" so free stuff gets thrown in for them. 

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58 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Builders with deep pockets can spend, but, as I said earlier, take note, a well prepped e30 and series original mitsu 3000gt just won indy.

 

Priceless!

Since this is a thread about brakes, I'll post the brake setup from the Indy Sunday winning car in case someone wants to copy our build :)

https://www.autozone.com/brakes-and-traction-control/brake-caliper-front/duralast-bracketed-brake-caliper-19-b1138/564233_304722_5913

https://smile.amazon.com/FRONT-REAR-Premium-Brake-Rotors/dp/B00E1SQ5GA/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=e30+brake+rotor&qid=1564099753&s=gateway&sr=8-3

 

 

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

 

 

true, but a very expensive car with some very expensive parts was also on the podium.

 

Are you talking about the boxster? Looking at the results it looks like the other 9 impound spots went to fairly "standard" Champ marques. 

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Builders with deep pockets can spend, but, as I said earlier, take note, a well prepped e30 and series original mitsu 3000gt just won indy.

 

Priceless!

 

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

All good for now. And I hope into the future. I’m not sure I can convince myself that these things will be true in 5 years.  

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12 hours ago, enginerd said:

 

 

Seeing your brake set up last year is what moved us away from "upgrading" to bigger brakes. We actually went the opposite direction solid rears and smaller fronts, calipers = $55, rotors =$35 a piece. (we had $250 in frozen rotors cash so right now we have some frozen rotors on though) Less agressive pads and we can get over 20 hours out of a set of pads.

 

Our brakes still are too strong and will lock without care, just ask @Clueless Racing. Beers @ gingerman man.....

 

We need wider tires now lol!

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Still have the 2X  valuation rule?  As long as you have cost instead of real rules, racers will  bypass them. Price conscious rules dont work and should be replaced by actual rules. 

  Use the simple  rule, like any  aluminum or steel 4 pot caliper  and 13in or less rotor.  

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1 minute ago, Mashley Adison said:

Still have the 2X  valuation rule?  As long as you have cost instead of real rules, racers will  bypass them. Price conscious rules dont work and should be replaced by actual rules. 

  Use the simple  rule, like any  aluminum or steel 4 pot caliper  and 13in or less rotor.  

 

Troll account be trolling?

 

Bad troll at that even - the kit in question has 12.2" rotors and 4 pot Aluminum calipers...

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Dont most have the same or less rotors?  Who cares what they actually cost.   Cost does not equate to speed always.  Brake pad sq in to mass does tho. 

 I took off the 13s and switched back to 12. 

Edited by Mashley Adison

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maybe we need a petition that says 2x rule has a maximum value.   so like you can spend the lesser of 2x or $500 per caliper.  (picked a number out of the air)

Edited by theblue

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 I am personally kind of in the opposite camp of some people here.  I don't care what people spend on brakes as long as they keep working.  Most of the cars in the series are perfectly fine on stock brakes with good lines, pads, and fluid.  Feel free to go spend $5k on insanely expensive brakes, the limit for most of these cars is the contact patch.

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On 7/25/2019 at 9:33 AM, Snorman said:

The 2x rule always applied to the highest retail price you could find including dealer pricing.

Can you or anyone else confirmed this?  I never got a formal email from tech on this topic, but I've tried to be very creative to get our setup under the cheapest rotor cost.  It would be nice to go back to a simpler option.

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My experience with big budget/big spenders/builders/teams joining cost conscious racing series is they tend to burn out and move on to bigger and brighter series when their big money doesn't dominate.  Unfortunately it can drive out the people who joined and built the series following the "spirit of the rules".  I hope the people and teams who understand what makes this series so incredibly fun and affordable stay and weather the storm of "big budget teams".  I  do agree with the OP that upgrading the brakes on almost any race car will reduce operating costs and make race prep easier.  It is also difficult for people who are not machinist and fabricators to build their own custom parts and "cobble together a big brake kit".  The cost for this kit is expensive for sure but you can nickle and dime yourself with OEM parts to $2300 in no time.  The unfortunate challenge for series directors is to find a set of rules to prevent teams from just buying their way to success and allow people to invent and work their way to success.  Rulebook and directors seem to have a good grip on the spirit of ChampCar.  Keep the faith and keep racing. 

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6 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

Can you or anyone else confirmed this?  I never got a formal email from tech on this topic, but I've tried to be very creative to get our setup under the cheapest rotor cost.  It would be nice to go back to a simpler option.

 

 

The current rule book is any price you can find, including dealer costs.  The highest price definitely counts.  So find the most expensive one you can, print it out and include it in your documentation.

 

 

the old rule book was still the highest cost you could find, but the dealer or “oem” parts sites didn’t count - only “national retail chains” which was loosely defined.

 

 

either way, it benefits you to find the highest cost source to use for your 2x justifications.

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I find it interesting that teams are trying to find ways to increase their spending. My team is always trying to spend as little as possible.

 

 

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